"German Mid-Late War SPAA Platoons?" Topic
9 Posts
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Thresher01 | 24 Nov 2018 2:59 a.m. PST |
So, when did the German SPAA platoons go from three vehicles to four? I was always under the impression until a couple of days ago that they only had 3 x Wirbelwinds, or Ostwinds in them. Moebelwagens too, I suspect, in some units. Did all of the units go from 3 – 4, or is it another Waffen SS thing, where they get more equipment, like in some of their larger tank companies/battalions too? Also, any reason some get the Wirbels/Ostwinds, and others get the Moebelwagens? |
Martin Rapier | 24 Nov 2018 3:35 a.m. PST |
There are many varied and interesting TO&E for mid and late war panzer units, but from peering at Panzertruppen, all I can see are four gun SPAA platoons (in some earlier incarnations, two sections of two guns). It does note that in September 1944, officially, the AA company had one platoon of wirbelwinds and one of mobelwagons. What they actually had is anyone's guess. The SS bigger platoons thing is a myth first inflicted on the world by AHGC in Panzer Leader. There were never special company or battalion level TOE for SS units, although a very selected few divisions did have extra battalions of this and that, in the same way that GD or HGD had extra battalions of this and that. |
Starfury Rider | 24 Nov 2018 4:04 a.m. PST |
Yes, pretty fluid in terms of authorised organisation, and likely more so in actual. If you're asking specifically about SP AA attached directly to Panzer Regts the KStN progression was; Feb44 – 12x 2-cm Flak (on SdKfz 140), with three Groups, each of two Sections of two guns apiece. Apr44 – 8x 3.7-cm Flak (on SdKfz 161/3), with four Groups of two guns apiece. Nov44 – either 4x 3.7-cm (Flakpanzer) and 4x 2-cm quad (on SdKfz 161/4), or 8x 3.7-cm Flakpanzer, or 8x 2-cm Flakvierling. In all cases shown as four guns forming a 'half-platoon'. Apr45 (for completeness only) – 8x 3.7-cm Flakpanzer in one Platoon and 3x 2-cm quad (on SdKfz 7/1 halftrack). Now having just typed all that I suddenly thought you might be asking about the Flak Pl in the Panzer Battalion HQ Coy, not the Regtl level guns? If so they were three gun subunits, and I've only seen them listed as SdKfz 7/1 halftrack mounted quads. Having combed through 'Fire Brigades' by Kamen Nevenkin my vague notes suggest only six Army Pz Divs had Pz Regtl Flak Coys added in 1944 (I didn't go through the SS ones). Gary |
pzivh43 | 24 Nov 2018 5:25 a.m. PST |
Thresher01---People like you are the main reason I keep coming back to TMP! Well done, sir! |
jdginaz | 24 Nov 2018 9:49 a.m. PST |
Basically they got what was available at the time. German supply of equipment was a lot more haphazard than many people think especially as the war dragged on |
deephorse | 24 Nov 2018 10:08 a.m. PST |
Nuts & Bolts vol.25 covers the Wirbelwind and Ostwind. These two vehicle types, along with the Mobelwagen, only served in the Panzer-Fla-Zuge of certain Army and SS Panzer and Panzerjager units, plus a few special units. 122 Wirbelwinds were produced, and maybe around 40 or so Ostwinds. As Gary indicates above the establishment of the Panzer-Fla-Zuge varied over time, with sometimes three variants of the same K.St.N. in operation at the same time. Initially this was 8 Mobelwagen. When the Wirbelwind became available it changed to 4 of each. Subsequently the three-version K.St.N. gave alternatives of 8 Mobelwagen, 8 Wirbelwind, or 4 of each. In total some 28 Panzer-Fla-Zuge received the Wirbelwind, plus one training unit. Because very little documentation on the Ostwind survived the war it is hardly known how many were produced or which units received them. In a K.St.N. dated 01.02.45 you can substitute Ostwind for Mobelwagen in the organisations I have given above. How many Panzer-Fla-Zuge actually got the Ostwind would appear to be anyone's guess. |
Thresher01 | 24 Nov 2018 2:47 p.m. PST |
Very kind of you pzivH43, but I'm only asking the questions. We really need to thank ALL the others that are responding to these, with great knowledge, details, and insights. Thank you all. Not sure which units, and/or types of units at this point, I'm asking about. It was more a general question, though I am most interested in the Panzer, SS Panzer, PzGren., and SS PzGren. divisions, regiments, battalions, etc.. Are you sure about the "myths" issue Martin? I seem to recall that some SS TO&Es had 5 tanks per platoon, instead of the more usual 4, and that in some cases there could be four platoons of 5 tanks each, plus the HQ of two additional tanks, for a total of 22 in some units (thought those were SS). Granted, perhaps those were only planned/desired TO&Es that might not have ever been achieved, but I do clearly recall reading about, and seeing those orgs for various types of tanks, e.g. Tigers, Panthers, and Panzer IVs. |
Fred Cartwright | 24 Nov 2018 2:58 p.m. PST |
Are you sure about the "myths" issue Martin? I seem to recall that some SS TO&Es had 5 tanks per platoon, instead of the more usual 4, and that in some cases there could be four platoons of 5 tanks each, plus the HQ of two additional tanks, for a total of 22 in some units (thought those were SS). Yes very much a myth. A company of 22 tanks was the standard for ‘43 to early ‘44, 4 platoons of 5 and 2 HQ tanks and gradually reduced first to 17, 4 platoons of 4 and 1 HQ and then 14 which I think was 3 platoons of 4 and 2 HQ and finally 10, 3 platoons of 3 and 1 HQ. The various incarnations of the Panzer Company were standard across SS and Heer, although when a division moved to the new organisation varied so at any point in time you could find divisions with several different variations of company organisation. |
Starfury Rider | 24 Nov 2018 6:38 p.m. PST |
It might stem, in part at least, from the March 1945 US Army Handbook on German Forces (TM-E-30-451), which does suggest that the SS Pz Regt Regt fielded more tanks. link For the Pz Coy, the Jan43 and Nov43 KStN still stipulated 22 tanks, (2 at Coy and four Pls of 5 each as noted), but there was already a tacit acknowledgement that 17 tanks would be the accepted alternative by the latter half of 1943. When the Pz Div organisation was revisited in 1944 the KStN 'dismounted' the fourth Pl of the Pz Coy, and reduced it to a cadre of 10 men, with the provision for the Pl to be formed if sufficient tanks and crews were available. The Nov44 batch of KStNs that the US Army Handbook refers to allowed for a further contraction, down to 14 tanks, though perhaps a little oddly it doesn't specifically state the three Pls were to drop to 4 tanks each, which seems the most likely option. I know someone who has spent a lot of time and effort on KStN research was of the opinion that the Nov44 tables were largely unimplemented. The Apr45 tables set out the 10-tank Coy, which was pretty much what the Red Army had been using against the Germans since 1942. I did once see a list of KStN that included a few specific to the SS, but they were not very interesting as I recall, so despite the hype they were largely confined to the same format (and weapons) as the Army. Gary |
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