"SdKfz 251/10 Halftracks?" Topic

Does anyone know if/when the SdKfz 251/10 model with the 37mm cannon fell out of favor, assuming it ever did?

I see where on the later C and D models, they started using a smaller gun shield, so as to hide the fact that this was the platoon leader's support vehicle.

Not sure if it was continued to be produced throughout the war, as more powerful armament became available – e.g. 75mm stummel, and the 75mm Pak 40 guns.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure they hung around until the end of the war, but if they were replaced by anything it would be a normal 251.

Stummels, SP 81mm mortars etc were support weapons and went in the support platoons and companies.

I have a vague recollection that in some of the panzer brigades, 251 Drillings (SP Flak) were used as platoon CO vehicles.

I don't think they stopped making them. You see pics of 251/10's on late D models, but if they couldn't get one probably used the standard 251.

The direct replacement for the 251/10 as a Pl HQ vehicle was supposed to be the 251/17, mounting a 2-cm light AA gun. The 251/10 was still authorised in the role with the April 1943 KStN for an Armd PzGren Coy (ref 1114c gp). That was superseded November 1943 and the Pl HQ track was now shown as the SdKfz 251/17 (the same vehicle was shown as carrying the HMG teams in the Heavy Pl, the Heavy Pl commander, and for the Panzerschreck teams).

Of course it was far easier to amend the organisational tables than to build and deliver the 251/17 in reality, but that was certainly the aim.

From memory, I think the WW2 era records for halftrack deliveries to units didn't show specific sub-types until something like Sep/Oct 1944. I'm not sure but I think they were just shown as 250 or 251 models, and were actually kitted out under 'unit arrangements' as the British Army might say. Martin Block posted a lot of info on various forums relating to German AFVs over the years, if I'm remembering it right it will be from his work. It's certainly difficult to define just how many 251/17s were with units from around May/June 1944 and how many might still have used the 251/10 in lieu.

The 7.5-cm armed SdKfz 251/9 was never intended to be a HQ vehicle, it was a specific support weapon, initially handled in a Pl of six such vehicles in certain types of Heavy Coy (I think it was first used with Pz Recce Bns), then latterly extended to PzGren Heavy Coys and to the Heavy Pl of Rifle Coys. The 251/22 I've only really seen specifically referred to in the 'end war' April 1945 PzGren Bn, in a Pl of six, where it a standalone support element as the Heavy Coy was gone.

Gary

No room for the radios you need as a plt commanders ride in the 251/9. Any and all spare space was taken up with ammo storage. same goes for the 251/2 (mortar carrier).

Fred's right IMO. They didn't stop making them . The shield was altered quite a few times and a few vehicles didn't have a shield at all.
Funny enough I bought a 20mm diecast model of a D type with 37mm gun some years ago . I nearly took it back because it only had a quarter of a shield ! Derrrrrrrrrrrrr :)

"Duel in the Mist" vol. 2 gives an excellent breakdown of the vehicles and equipment in the LSSAH at the time of the Bulge offensive. Its Pz.Gren. units had no 251/10s, instead its platoon leaders had 251/17s, with the leaders of the two platoons in the 11th company having 251/21s. The platoon leaders in the Pz.Pi.Btl. also had 251/21s.

Fred's right IMO. They didn't stop making them .

According to Jentz & Doyle factory production of 251/10s ceased in early 1944. Of course unit workshops etc. could always improvise them.

Thanks for all the quick replies and excellent info.

I really appreciate it.

I can see where the single, and/or triple 20mm cannons would come in very handy, late in the war, for both ground attack, as well as AA use.

The shield was altered quite a few times and a few vehicles didn't have a shield at all.

The valid combos are:
Ausf A, B, C with standard full height shield
Ausf A, B, C with low profile full shield
Ausf B, C, D with low profile left side only shield (or "half shield")
Ausf C, D with no shield

A few kits have incorrectly modelled the 251/10 Ausf D with full PaK shield but this is thought to have been based on photographs of one or more vehicles that had actually been field/depot mod'ed, not manufactured.

Didn't armoured engineer platoon leaders get the 251/7 with the anti-tank rifle?

I was under the impression that the 251/7s were in support platoons, like for the engineers.

I have seen photos though, of them with the 37mm cannons, which was a bit surprising, since previously I'd never seen that.

Quite a bit of change in the Pioneers, certainly the 1943 into early 1944 tables show a 251/10 and six 251/7 halftracks for an Armd Pio Pl in a PzGren Regt. The 251/10 is replaced by the 251/17 on the Apr44 tables.

Gary

Where were all the 251/17's supposed to come from? AFAIK the early version on the C with the hinged sides was built in very small numbers. There is a later version on the D, pic below, but there is a dearth of pics of real vehicles that makes me think those were not produced in large numbers either.

Beautiful paint job !

Some info on a couple of other forums over the years on 251/17 production and variants;

link

That includes an estimate of a modest 200 with units as of Dec44.

link

A lot of dead photo links in that one, likely after the great photobucket massacre.

Authorised strength for a PzDiv circa Aug44 was 32, with 21 in the PzGren Bn and 1 in the Armd Pl of the Armd PzGren Regtl Pio Coy, 3 in the Armd Coy of the Pio Bn and 7 in the Recce Bn.

As we know, the German Army was very good at writing equipment wish lists, less capable of delivering on them in reality.

Gary

In refitting for the Ardennes offensive the LSSAH received 14 251/17 and 12 251/21.

So it looks like the numbers were made up with field conversions with various 20mm guns, field conversion Drillings or standard 251/1's.

I was under the impression that the 251/7s were in support platoons, like for the engineers.

I have seen photos though, of them with the 37mm cannons, which was a bit surprising, since previously I'd never seen that.

I am stretching my memory a bit here, but IIRC that is another case of misinterpretation of photographs. There is a widely published series of photographs of a vehicle that appears to be an SdKfz 251/7 mounting 3.7cm PaK with half shield BUT I believe further analysis has led to the conclusion that it is actually a field mod'ed 251/10 Ausf C, the modification being the addition of the engineering bridge sections!

Either way, works for me.

Now, I just need 1/144th scale SdKfz 251/7 Ds, 251/16 Ds, 251/17 Ds, and 251/21 Ds.

Can probably scratch-build the plain 20mm one, but could use a 3-D printed Drilling mount and shield to which I can add in pins/wires/brush bristles for the 20mm guns.

Need 3-D printed bridges, and flamethrowers too.

While we're at it, could use an affordable Ostwind turret also, in 1/144th sale – a pack of 3 or 4 would be nice, if anyone is listening/reading.