"Cold Wars 2019" Topic

So, not looking to start a food fight. And just also want to say I think the board is doing a yeoman's job dealing with the difficult and challenging variables. Jon Speiss gave Double G and me an update last Cold Wars that really impressed me just how thoughtful and thorough they've been.

My guess is there will need to be an assessment early next year if the Host can handle this year's Cold Wars or will we have similar if not worse difficulties due to weather. I was very bummed I couldn't make Fall In and very much want to get to CW. My question is: if the Host looms as a disaster, how feasible is a one time return to the Ike?

I've been told the Ike is as available and useful as it's ever been. This did not reassure me much as it was evidently supposed to.

We've got a contract with the Host for CW2019, and a whole range of fines for breaking said contract. My understanding--binding on neither Host nor BOD--is that the plan is to go ahead with Cold Wars at the Host, see how it is then, and only afterward settle on a location for CW2020.

Frankly, I think the Host hit bottom with Fall In this year. They've remodeled the vendor's hall. They've remodeled all the guest rooms. They've fixed the plumbing, heating electrical and AC. On the other hand, they've now closed the restaurant four conventions running, they've trashed the main entrance, taken out the elevator and pretty much trashed all the gaming rooms.

The only additional damage they CAN inflict is to close the freight elevator and/or damage the Black Hole of Lancaster, AKA the flea market--not that I would put this past the present Host management, or think it would in any way be disapproved of by the BOD. Oh. And they can close the back entrance, making it harder to get from the Distlefink to the Vendor's Hall.

I've seen remodeling. I've done some remodeling. If I had to put money on it, I'd bet on modest but showy improvement. They'll try to finish the exterior walls and maybe fix the exterior concrete before the weather gets even worse, and carpet, wallpaper and ceiling tile in the gaming areas just isn't that difficult or time-consuming. And they badly need that new elevator to avoid legal trouble.

I half expect them to trash the flea market, and I'm surprised we haven't lost the back entrance already. I'm not making any bets on the return of the restaurant. Something's going on there I don't understand at all. But if they have the game rooms up and running, this may make an impression on the majority who don't sleep in the Host anyway.

My best guess. Everyone can look it up next April and laugh at me.

Sounds lovely……….

if the host can't handle cold wars, it is probably already too late to do much about it.

oh, the ike sucks too

Wargamers would complain about cold ice cream.

My two shillings worth.

The Host cares about us about as much at certain Doodle political figures.

Just saying.

I was there for Fall In. It was okay. I'm looking forward to never going there again.

Once again, YMMV.

Eric

Might want to dial down the hyperbole a notch. Absent fire or terrorist attack, there will be rooms and parking at the Host. What we're speculating on is not whether or not there will be a convention, but the degree of inconvenience--and there's always inconvenience in a convention, though I'll grant you the Host has exceeded itself recently. As for the Ike, it will be clean and serviceable and there will be adequate room for gaming and vendors.

What I'm sure bothers the BOD is that there are problems inherent to the IKE--the commute, and the absence of other motels or restaurants within walking distance. The problems with the Host are, in theory, temporary. We all know that since the renovation is costing the new owners money paid to the contractors and money from lost business, at some point we'll get our gaming rooms and our parking places back, and we'll still have dining and other motels within walking distance. We know that intellectually, but after the last four conventions, it just doesn't FEEL as though it's ever going to end.

Robert;
Nah. Why bother? After decades of trekking to Lancaster, I am firmly convinced The Management doesn't like us. But are willing to take our shillings, dubloons, and rubles.

Not going to repeat my 1798 Oirish Rebellion games, in case some folks get offended.

Going to run Old French War games instead. They are OFM approved too…

King Louis wanted to build a wall too, you know.

Eric :-)

What I'm driving at is if in early February it's clear the Host will be a catastrophe , how do you gents feel about the Ike as a last minute substitute.

What if the Host gets shut down as unsafe until renovations are finished ? Then what?

> What if the Host gets shut down as unsafe until renovations are finished ? Then what?

It might already be too late for a plan B in that case. If not yet then soon.

A lot of construction can be completed in the next four months.

They've been at this how long?

I agree with others above—they are paying good money to renovate, and though it may be slow and we may question their priorities, work will get done in the next four months. The management needs to complete the renovations to be able to recoup their costs in all this work.

The bigger question is once they complete all their planned renovations, will they knife us with far higher rates once the property is more locally competitive?

Move it. If it snows, Cold Wars will be a disaster. Several people fell going down/back to the dealer hall – this without snow and ice. If it snows, the Host will be completely unable to support any parking on site due to all the construction materials in the way.

I was reliably informed that the Host offered to let HMGS out of its contract for March. In police work, they would call that a clue. Take them up on it. Go to the Ike, or wherever.

If anyone thinks any significant improvements will happen in the next four months – over three holidays, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

This was the second time I stayed there without a TV in my room. Last time was Cold Wars. Just how hard is it to hook up a TV in six months?

Run, don't walk. This from a long time fan of the Host.

My two cents: I enjoyed the con after a year's absence. I didn't enjoy the cold temperatures inside, but the flea market worked for me and my hotel off site was a great stay for one night. If I go to HCON I will stay there again. Then I will have to figure how to schlepp from a garage to the con at an undetermined distance, but it can be done I'm sure. Cold Wars for me usually comes with some weather issues. Go or stay home. Cancel before the deadline or risk it. Yes, there was inconvenience but we knew that coming in. My biggest concern, beside the elevator mess, was food. I managed to grab two hot dogs at the break in Wally's and that kept me alive. The hotel had a decent breakfast and Roy Rogers in Thurmont got me home. I survived. A good result to a pretty good day and a half at the Host. I'm also not going to bash the BOD for having the cons go on no matter what. That seems to be their MO for quite a while now. I think we either live with it or move to greener pastures, if they actually exist. I chickened out of HCON this time. The world didn't come to an end. My playing days are getting shorter and I can live with that. Still a whole lot of fun talking to all of you crazy people at cons. Seems like I am not the only crazy person.

Historygamer;

Hardly.

And if your entertainment of choice at a Con is to watch TV in your room…

Why, that'd be like using your iPhone at a re-enactment to keep yourself occupied during the "jollification" provided….

Just saying.

Eric

I don't think the lack of TV was the issue, it's that the renovation is so effed up Cold Wars at the Host just might be undoable. Two people did fall at Fall In (hey….ironic!) One taken away by ambulance. I appreciate stoic gamers making due but at some point it just doesn't work.

HG gets it. I really enjoy hanging in Lancaster for a few days. Seriously . But Gettysburg works too.

I just made reservations for the CW2019 at the Host.
So I do not think at this time the Host would let HMGS cancel a contract. Well I should say I hope it does not get canceled! Also I thought the IKE was sold to become a casino?

-Mike

I like Gettysburg as much as the next guy, but the Ike is a wreck, too, and I can't imagine the years since we've been gone have been kind. Plus, the setup with the all star is a bad joke.

Gut out one more at the Host. If nothing else it is familiar. This could be the last Convention ever there. I can stand one more.I never went to the Ike. So, with a grain of salt I say move onward not backward.

I just don't understand all this 'catastrophe' talk about the Host. Things were not all that bad at Fall-in and I'm sure they will have improved at least somewhat by Cold Wars.

I'm sure they will have improved at least somewhat by Cold Wars.

I wish I had your optimism.

link

What in the world are these people smoking? They haven't even updated their room pix.

Eric – my point was the lack of improvement in something as simple as a TV. The real point is the distinct possibility of snow during the con. Naw, it never snows during Cold Wars. :-)

The Ike never became a casino. It may be a two star hotel, but it isn't under construction and the dealer hall isn't down hill – both ways LoL

I'd be happy at the Ike too, but……

We'd have to break a contract with the Host.

We left as the Ike was charging us for the Hotel plus a charge for the All Star barn.

I always had a soft spot for the Gettysburg site. There was always an issue as there had to be separate deals for the Eisenhower and the All Star. It's more complex now as the Aspire and the Eisenhower are now separate venues. Consequently, to do a deal for the site you have to do 3 negotiations. That makes it about 9 times as hard to get it to work. All but unthinkable on short notice.

I bet we could get out of the Host contract.

If the Host can be made to work , fine. But I'm suggesting having plan B ready or there might be no Cold Wars 2019

……or there might be no Cold Wars 2019

That might be overstating it. Cold Wars at the Host is far preferable to no Cold Wars at all.

We can "gut it out" one more time at the Host all we want, but if there is a snow pack on the ground (pretty likely considering it's at the tail end of winter and all), parking will be a nightmare, as well the dealer load in and load out.

It was no day at the beach for Fall In, the parking on Sunday was horrible, cars/trucks/trailers/vans all over the place.

It comes to down to safety IMO; imagine these guys trying to come down/go up that hill with snow/ice present. Seeing the poor guy who fell and blew out his knee bothered me all weekend long; imagine coming to the show to have a good time and destroying your knee in the process, I felt like two cents watching that poor guy hobble out of the dealer hall on his way to the hospital, frankly it still bothers me almost a month later.

I don't want to see that happen again to anyone, it's not worth it. The Host is a mess, you can put lipstick on that pig all you want and say all is well/all is fine/they are coming along nicely with the renovations, it's taken them 9 months to build a garden in front of the dealer hall and it hasn't progressed one inch in that time and winter is coming.

The overflow dealer parking lot isn't getting done anytime soon, it's WAY down on the priority list, the asphalt plants close soon and won't reopen until Spring, so forget about the parking lot being done by March, the current lot behind the hall is a tire fire, so we as dealers will be SOL if it snows or if there is a snow pack on the ground, parking on the grass will not be an option.

I remember Cold Wars several years ago in the middle of a blizzard, the only thing that saved us is there was a crew of shovelers staying at the Host and they were nice enough to shovel the place out, the one truck with a plow on it on the property crapped the bed and they had no way of plowing the lot.

We need to keep our options open is all.

The famous "Retreat From Moscow". Trudging my way down Route 30 to my hotel, I kept looking over shoulder for Cossacks.

You know, I'd call some of you guys a bunch of old ladies, but then I'd have to apologize to Mrs. Vietmeyer, who got through Nazi Germany and WWII. Do you listen to yourselves?

There may be snow in Pennsylvania come spring!
Someone may need to take the shuttle to the Vendors Hall!
There could even be troubles parking and unloading!
There may be no cable in our rooms!!

And what are we going to game? "Extreme terrain" in 2019, so Trenton, the Battle of the Bulge, Stalingrad and Moscow 1941. Maybe the Isonzo.

Get a grip. Four months out. If the authorities didn't close the Host in 2018, someone would have to burn the place down to keep CW2019 from being there. And anyone who hasn't had parking or unloading problems before now hasn't been a vendor or hosted games very long. I'm still irked over being lied to by Host staff about conditions, and especially about the restaurant, but I have done wargames in cold leaky tents and been fed MREs or worse before. This time I get a warm dry room and a steakhouse next door. As for TV, I've only been coming to conventions for 25+ years. For two-day wargames, I go back fifty years. In all that time, I don't know whether the TV in the room EVER worked. I've never tried to turn one on. Might have had to read an old MWAN the first night, but it never got so bad I had to turn on a TV.

And I get called fussy for wanting historical miniatures games at a historical miniatures convention.

If you want good weather, abundant parking, convenient shuttles, and guaranteed handicap accessible, go to Disney World and pay for the deluxe package. I'm going to go to Lancaster and hang out with the wargamers.

I don't want to see that happen again to anyone, it's not worth it. The Host is a mess, you can put lipstick on that pig all you want and say all is well/all is fine/they are coming along nicely with the renovations, it's taken them 9 months to build a garden in front of the dealer hall and it hasn't progressed one inch in that time and winter is coming.

I'm not defending the pace of renovations, but you don't serve any purpose with inaccurate, exaggerated comments like that. They renovated the dealer hall, AND they brought the mechanicals back online, AND they renovated all or most of the guest rooms. Just because the meeting rooms were held until last, and they're a wreck now, there's nothing useful to be gained pretending that significant work hasn't been done.

Wait and see if the convention center turns into a complete mess, and let's see how happy everyone who didn't get a room in the half day they were available feels about it. Maybe they'll get upset and not come back and we can continue the trend of declining attendance.

Wait and see if the casino turns out to be a good spot. I can already hear dealers complaining about people dropping their spending money on the slots.

Everybody's great at complaining, but nobody wants to address the fact that we need a ton of space, the ability to get in and out, and most of the attendees are awfully cheap. There just aren't that many places that work for us, and that's a fact no matter how much whining about renovations and killer mold and whatever nonsense people want to spout. And, we saw with Fredericksburg what happens when you move it too far from the primary location.

"I'm not defending the pace of renovations, but you don't serve any purpose with inaccurate, exaggerated comments like that."

What's inaccurate/exaggerated about my comment about the progress of the garden in front of the dealer hall? It's a pile of dirt and gravel, the new parking lot that the Host promised would be ready by Historicon hasn't even been started yet and it's the middle of November.

I didn't mention the condition of the meeting rooms; YOU DID, NOT ME.

Do me a big fat favor; don't twist my words/put words in my mouth and dial down your comments directed at me.

"and most of the attendees are awfully cheap"………

Really; most of them are awfully cheap? What data did you compile to come up with that broad comment?

You don't serve any purpose with inaccurate, exaggerated comments like that.

I paid full price for a room without a tv and working phone. Twice. Yes, I do watch tv when I return to the room. FYI they are not done redoing all the rooms. I saw that myself. Because of the hike I now limit the number of times I go to the dealer hall. I want all hmgs cons to succeed. I can tough it out too, but why do that and why enrich the Host if we don't have to? Why risk seeing more people injured? I'd consider returning to the Host in a second when it is done. Put on two games and won best of show at FI, so you know I'm committed.

My attendance ran me around $700 USD or more. Plus tire repair from the screw I picked up in the lovely parking lot mess.

most of the attendees are awfully cheap

Yes, the people spending hundreds of dollars in the dealer hall and bringing thousands of dollars worth of toys to run games sure are cheap.

Cheap = Howls of outrage when entry for the whole weekend goes over $25 USD, hotel rooms have to be cheap, food has to be cheap. Yes they (some/most?) spend in the dealer hall, and begrudge every penny spent on anything else…

What's inaccurate/exaggerated about my comment about the progress of the garden in front of the dealer hall? It's a pile of dirt and gravel, the new parking lot that the Host promised would be ready by Historicon hasn't even been started yet and it's the middle of November.

I didn't mention the condition of the meeting rooms; YOU DID, NOT ME.

Do me a big fat favor; don't twist my words/put words in my mouth and dial down your comments directed at me.

"and most of the attendees are awfully cheap"………

Really; most of them are awfully cheap? What data did you compile to come up with that broad comment?

You don't serve any purpose with inaccurate, exaggerated comments like that.

Don't treat me like an idiot and I won't treat you like one. I didn't put words in your mouth; I read the ones you wrote. Your statement suggested (or outright said) that the only thing that has been done is the garden, as though that was some kind of evidence that there had been very little work done. In fact, renovating a couple hundred hotel rooms is, by any measure, substantial work and a considerable investment.

My "awfully cheap" comment was based on almost 30 years of coming to these conventions and witnessing such things as cold cuts on ice in the bathroom sinks, etc. Honestly, I don't consider that an insult, just a statement of fact. I'd also suggest the endless comments on here about how the Host will raise prices when the reno is done. If you don't think things like HMGS conventions are price sensitive, we'll just have to disagree. But, I think we've done everything we can to drive down attendance over the last seven or eight years, so maybe ratcheting up the prices is the next way to go. Pretty soon, we'll be able to hold the events in any roadside Holiday Inn with a meeting room.

"Your statement suggested (or outright said) that the only thing that has been done is the garden, as though that was some kind of evidence that there had been very little work done. In fact, renovating a couple hundred hotel rooms is, by any measure, substantial work and a considerable investment."

You read what I wrote incorrectly; they started work on the garden in March and as of Fall In, it hasn't progressed at all.

I never said all they've done is the garden; they haven't even done that, not to mention the front entrance has been in the same state since Historicon.

If you're going to argue about what I said, my suggestion is read what I wrote before you do.

The only advantage I can see to moving Cold Wars back to the Ike is that it would be nice to stop at the Roy Rogers in Thurmont on the way home.

I like Triggerburgers as much as the next guy, but why don't we just honor our contract and leave the convention at the Host one last time, then hold it somewhere else in 2010?

"I like Triggerburgers as much as the next guy, but why don't we just honor our contract and leave the convention at the Host one last time, then hold it somewhere else in 2010?"

If the Host can get their act together by now and March and provide basic services you'd expect at a hotel, have the gaming rooms finished and the parking lots done out back, then sure, hold it there.

If no, move it for everyones sake so that it will be the enjoyable experience for all that is should be, not a combination of the Bataan Death March, Napoleon's retreat from Moscow and life in Andersonville Prison…………

I wonder if there is enough lead time to find an alternate site even if the Host burned down.there is more to it than just negotiating room rates etc. Including getting the entire staff/support etc, equipment, food services al to pivot to a new site.

For better or worse, it's more than likely the Host at least one last time.

If the Host offered to let HMGS out of the contract, as some have mentioned/opined, I suspect the staff/BOD have at least considered the possibility of an alternate site, and found it not feasible?

I am told they called the VFCC but it was already booked. Thus why they might want to try the Ike. If they are available, book a limo company shuttle bus for runs back and forth and bring in an outside caterer.

A very happy thanksgiving to everyone.

If you're going to argue about what I said, my suggestion is read what I wrote before you do.

I did read it. Maybe you should do the same.

I don't really see the point in running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to find some semi-reasonable replacement location. This debate constantly devolves into the same kind of thing as most public discourse in the world…a total ignorance of basic facts. There are not many suitable locations for these events. That should be obvious from the recycling of such sites as the Ike (pretty much a dump however many years ago we were last there, and I can't imagine it's improved) and the VFCC (not exactly new blood either, casino or not).

The Lancaster Convention Center came up a million times before and was always rejected. We'll see how it works. We already know it is grossly short of adjacent hotel rooms.

I understand being upset with the Host and the way they have done the reno, but how, exactly, does that change the fact that there are no other locations that work as well?

Doesn't anybody ever get sick of pretending their are other options, or ignoring the obvious shortfalls of the few potential locations that exist?

I've got my room for the Marriott at the convention center. Does that mean I should pretend that hundreds and hundreds of attendees didn't get banished to hotels that are a drive away?

Should we pretend that the Ike and that stupid All Star thing next door (which I remember hearing was very expensive, if it's possible to believe that) make a good setup for the con?

Why not just pretend we didn't lose half our market going to VA and put that back on the table?

It just gets exhausting ignoring the realities because we don't like them.

CD: I generally agree with what you are saying. Back in the day the VFCC was either rejected or passed on several times for shortcomings. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me the main issue for CW at the Host is the risk of snow. No snow, at worst it's FI II. Snow and it will be a disaster. It's that simple, at least to me.

"I did read it. Maybe you should do the same."

I give up.

Honestly.

Tell you what, we'll keep running these conventions at the Host hoping they get their act together.

Einstein really was right.

" I can't speak for anyone else, but to me the main issue for CW at the Host is the risk of snow. No snow, at worst it's FI II. Snow and it will be a disaster. It's that simple, at least to me."

So by March, the front entranceway will be done so people can get into the hotel, the restaurant and bar will reopen so people can dine and drink, all the conference rooms that were being renovated will be finished so that gamers can run/play in their games, all the construction equipment will be gone and the new parking lot down by the dealer hall will be done so people can park.

Oh and if there is snow, the lots will be plowed and the walkways shoveled.

We'll see.

I wonder if there isn't a proportional response the BOD could make to mitigate some of the worst problems rather than nuking the agreement with the Host with no alternative course of action actually in place.

This could include insisting that the Host provide frequent and regular shuttles running from two or three locations at the Host to the vendor area available to all attendees and not only those staying there. They could also open the door to the mezzanine and provide a staff member to monitor/check badges. And if the parking lots are a concern, what about negotiating with the Host for contract snow plows? I would even suggest the BOD offer to pay some of the costs if they feel in extremis about these issues. Last time I looked at the financial reports there was close to $400 USDk in the coffers. I am guessing shuttles and plows would cost a couple or three thousand dollars at most if split with the Host.

To be frank, would be nice to see some of the organization's cash reserves put to good use for the membership since dues provide little in the way of benefits to members.

The comical/sad part of all of this is we all want the same thing; a nice venue to hold the conventions.

The problem is I've come to realize no matter where it's held, people won't be happy.

The Host; it's a mess right now
Downtown Lancaster; not enough hotel rooms in the area
FCC; too far/too noisy/too expensive
The Ike; it's a dump
VFCC; I forget what the complaint is about it to be honest

We need a large enough facility to host the vendors and for gaming that is not noisy, is not expensive, is close to everyone who wants to attend, has cheap hotels and eats in the area.

Yeah, good luck with that.

In order to get, you have to give up something, no location is going to be THE perfect place.

Oh and I forgot; an easily accessible spot to hold the flea market because we all know how important that is to everyones enjoyment, right Robert?………….;)……….

At this point, I say have CW at the Host and see what happens, it's pointless to keep going round and round over this.

Beyond CW, Historicon is set, FI is set.

If the downtown location works out and the VFCC works out, then have CW at the VFCC for 2020 as well as FI and keep Historicon downtown.

If the VFCC does not work out, maybe by 2020 the Host will be done with their renovations and CW and FI can land there.

Miracles can happen, just ask the 1969 Mets and Jets, 1980 USA Olympic hockey team and the 2007 Giants.

I agree with custosarmorum and Double G… Let Cold Wars ride at the Host for 2019 since we know most of the challenges going in. It may be possible for the BOD to split or pay outright for solutions to mitigate the risks and provide amenities. (like renting a snow cat to go up and down the hill…lol) In all seriousness the BOD listens and will try to do everything it can and provide the necessary resources.

When I was on the BOD months ago these convention issues were discussed and worked endlessly. If all you people are tired of discussing this issue, imagine how fed up the BOD is perpetually discussing/brainstorming/negotiating/haggling/investigating (repeat)?

All while trying to make sure the upcoming conventions each have the best chance of going off successfully.

These BOD volunteers are listening and acting in the best interest of the membership and they do it without compensation.
Many of the ideas presented here are not new to them.

Barring a substantial improvement this could be the last event at the Host ever. (never say never)

So why not embrace the chaos and make this more of a fond farewell to the old lady? (at least until she gets the Cinderella treatment)

TRU