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"Flaging up Medieval units " Topic

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Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 5:34 a.m. PST

So I'm looking for "generic" HYW French banners to put into my French infantry unit, I feel a 24 figure medieval unit should have several banners.
But there is only so many flags and banners available, and I can't have the same French lords banners in all my units.

Sir Walter Rlyeh15 Nov 2018 7:43 a.m. PST

I am not sure what you mean by generic. Basic heraldry should work fine as long as you don't use any eagles. The rules of Heraldry are essentially French since the English were part of the Angevin Empire during the heyday of heraldry. Lions are a royal symbol. Eagles are Imperial. And the Iberians seamed to be the only ones where wolves were not uncommon.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 8:02 a.m. PST

Lions and eagles are about the most common 'beasts' in heraldry throughout Europe. Neither has any direct connection to royalty except that some kings and emperors used them.

There are a large number of French arms in the WRG book Armies of the Middle ages vol 1 specifically for the HYW.

You should also be able to find significant sets of arms for the same period online with a variety of search criteria.

A square heraldic banner was still popular during the HYW with rectangular ones for lesser lords – design taken directly from the coat of arms.

Winston Smith15 Nov 2018 10:19 a.m. PST

If you insist on "generic", and not the standards of the actual commanders, try "France Ancient".

Personal logo Swampster Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 11:44 a.m. PST

There are lots of French here

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 11:52 a.m. PST

I have to use generic. Or I'll have to research each French noble to see what he supplied of troops. I can give one noble's banner to a foot men at arms unit. If he only supplied regular infantry or just mounted troops. Mabye some time later I can dig that deep and make forces based on certain noble's tribute to the war effort. As it sounds fun. But for now it will have to be generic.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 12:24 p.m. PST

Did such a thing as a 'generic' French infantry banner exist ? Later they seem to be more common but in a mainly feudal society, personal banners are far more likely.

Not sure that France Ancient (or Modern, come to that) would have been carried by a lowly foot unit.

Personal logo Swampster Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 1:02 p.m. PST

For the late part of the HYW the French are sometimes shown with a red flag with white cross (reverse of the the English flag).

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 1:15 p.m. PST

Any body of troops would use the banners of their lord/paymaster?
Banners were not only rally point and signal but part of the moral contest, those who look best fights best

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 1:23 p.m. PST

Yes, Swampster, I thought of that after I'd posted the last comment.

There is considerable uncertainty over the origins of the various 'crusader' cross flags and when they were both adopted and superseded. Having seen 15th C French images with both white on red and red on white I think it reasonable to assume that both flags were in use during the HYW by the French. What can't be certain is whether they were a 'generic' flag available to all and sundry.

Druzhina16 Nov 2018 9:21 p.m. PST

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.