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"ANV cavalry - sabres or not??" Topic


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huevans01113 Nov 2018 8:47 p.m. PST

Title says it all. Did the ANV cavalry regts have sabres and how proficient would they be in using them?

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2018 11:29 p.m. PST

Yes, they had them and they used them. Probably as good as any other cav of the ACW. It's not until you get into the Western/irregulars that you cavalry without sabers.

Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2018 7:18 a.m. PST

They had them but Stuart had to give an order to use them. Left to their own devices, many troopers preferred the pistol. One pistol not two or three. I am not saying that none had two pistols, but it was rare.

I have just been doing a lot of research on the weapons of the cavalry of the ANV.

The cavalry of the Army of Northern Virginia that went to Early in the Shenandoah in 1864 was different. He complained that they had no sabres and were useless for mounted fighting. Of course Stuart was dead by then.

Carbines or other shoulder arms is another matter.

Tom

Old Contemptibles14 Nov 2018 12:35 p.m. PST

Yes they had them and put them to good use.

huevans01114 Nov 2018 3:21 p.m. PST

I have just been doing a lot of research on the weapons of the cavalry of the ANV.

The cavalry of the Army of Northern Virginia that went to Early in the Shenandoah in 1864 was different. He complained that they had no sabres and were useless for mounted fighting. Of course Stuart was dead by then.

Carbines or other shoulder arms is another matter.

Tom

Thanks for the responses to all.

The cavalry w Early in 1864 was essentially ANV cavalry though? I remember at least Rosser being with him. Can you explain a little?

I would love to know any other notes you could mention about weapons. I would have assumed that most ANV regulars would have had breech loader carbines by 1864??

donlowry14 Nov 2018 7:01 p.m. PST

IIRC, most of the Confederate cavalry in the Valley in '64 were armed with short Enfield rifles, or so Early said when he complained that they therefore could only fight dismounted. I think he exaggerated. For one thing, the short rifles surely came with sword-bayonets.

About half of his cavalry came from the ANV (Fitz Lee's division) and the other half from the Valley and SW Virginia.

Ryan T14 Nov 2018 7:43 p.m. PST

The only source I have found for ANV cavalry armament is the "Armament Report of the Cavalry Corps, December 15th 1864" in the Wade Hampton papers in the South Carolina State Library.

Of the 5552 men 1100 (20%) were unarmed, 925 (17%) had no long arms, 1369 (25%) carried no sabres; and 4079 (26%) had no pistols.

Note the discrepancy of 20% of the men being considered to be unarmed when only 17% did not have a long arm weapon. However, of the 18 units listed in the report data is missing for the long arms of five of them, the number of sabres needed is not listed for four units, and the shortfall of pistols is not included for one regiment. If the average of each category is extrapolated to fill in the missing data the final interpretation could be as follows:

Total strength – 5552
Unarmed – 1100 (20%)
No sabres – 1722 (31%)
No long arms – 1081 (20%)
No pistols – 4402 (79%)

Garryowen, I would be very interested in any additional details of earlier ANV cavalry arms. So far everything I have found deals with the AoP and seeing what is happening on the other side would be most useful.

Ryan

huevans01114 Nov 2018 8:51 p.m. PST

IIRC, most of the Confederate cavalry in the Valley in '64 were armed with short Enfield rifles, or so Early said when he complained that they therefore could only fight dismounted. I think he exaggerated. For one thing, the short rifles surely came with sword-bayonets.

About half of his cavalry came from the ANV (Fitz Lee's division) and the other half from the Valley and SW Virginia.

It would make sense that the Valley and SW VA cavalry were essentially partisans and / or mounted infantry who could raid and skirmish, but not maneuver and charge in formation. I would be surprised if the ANV regts were so limited though.

Lee49415 Nov 2018 10:05 a.m. PST

American ACW cavalry should not be confused with Napoleonic cav. ACW Cav in either army was ultra light dragoons. While mounted engagements did occur, they were primarily scouts and fought dismounted whenever possible. The Napoleonic "cavalry charge" went out with the advent of the ruffled musket. Cheers@

Old Contemptibles15 Nov 2018 12:17 p.m. PST

Confederate cavalry, late in the war could have been armed with anything. These include but not limited to shotguns, rifled or smooth bore muskets, muzzle or breach loading carbines and could be armed with pistols only. Sabers are hard to say but all mine have sabers. At Brandy Station the Rebels defiantly had them.

Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2018 5:48 p.m. PST

Ryan, Unfortunately, I have not had access to any official records of the armament for the CSA cavalry. I have comments from participants and some secondary sources.

Actually, from what I have read, I think that after the Gettysburg campaign the ANV cavalry may have improved their armament. They captured a lot. I have not kept as detailed notes as I should have on my reading, but it seems the CS cavalry captured more US cavalry than vice versa. They got a lot of weapons that way.

Here are raw notes I have made from my research. Sources are included at the end of the entries.

CSA. Breech loading carbines were procured only in limited quantities, never more than enough to arm one, or at most two squadrons in a regiment. The deficiency was made up, generally, by Enfield rifles. Robertson's two North Carolina regiments which joined Stuart in May, 63, were armed with sabres and Enfield rifles. McClellan, The Life and Campaigns of Major-General J.E.B. Stuart p 260, 261.

Fleetwood Hill. Munford arrived with the First, Second, and Third regiments of Virginia cavalry. He utilized three squadrons of sharpshooters from those regiments. McClellan, p. 283

Stevensburg. 2nd SC had at least some Enfields. McClellan, p. 286.

Aldie. 2nd and 3rd VA Cavalry each dismounted a squadron of sharpshooters. McClellan, p. 299

At Upperville The Eighth Illinois charged mounted against the Confederates behind stonewalls. Initially the Eighth fired a volley with their carbines. They then used pistols. The Confederates used their swords. Hard, History of the Eighth Cavalry Regiment Illinois Volunteers, p. 252.

CSA Cavalry arms. The Confederate, instead of arming the entire regiment with rifles or carbines, had sharpshooter companies, thus leaving a part of the regiment with only pistol and carbine (sic, saber?). Until towards the end of 1863, their carbines and rifles were muzzle-loading. By that time they had captured enough breech-loaders to largely arm their reduced numbers with them. Crowninshield, A History of the First Regiment of Massachusetts Cavalry Volunteers, p. 35.

CS Cavalry arms. They were armed with sabres of all sorts…They had usually Colt's revolvers…They had sharpshooter companies in a regiment, often two, while the balance of the companies were armed with pistols and sabres. Some of their regiments had English Enfield carbines, and some were armed with a carbine made in Richmond, like a short Springfield rifle, made to sling; while some had long rifles slung across the shoulders. The carbines were, in 1862, the Smith – a poor weapon- condemned in February, 1863, and replaced by the Sharps, which was the weapon in most general use in the United States cavalry. Crowninshield, p. 295.

CSA Cavalry weapons. The Richmond made breechloader carbine was not accepted by the men as the first ones received in March 1863 had a high percentage burst. Lee asked that muzzle loading carbines be manufactured. Rifles were to be provided to a number of cavalrymen. Few were issued and those that were had been returned or thrown away. They were a major encumbrance for mounted troops and made the men feel they were mounted infantry, not cavalry. Trout, After Gettysburg, p.105, n 28.

Richmond carbines received by four companies of the Third Virginia Cavalry on or about September 26, 1863. Trout, p. 163.

Aldie. The CS sharpshooters behind the stone wall north of the Snickersville Pike were only 16 men of the 2nd Va. Cavalry under a lieutenant. McClellan quoted in Crowninshield, p. 154, 155.

Aldie. Walton's 2nd Va sharpshooters were relieved by a squadron of sharpshooters each from the 2nd and 3rd Va Cavalry. They had a stone wall on their front, a post and rail fence on their right, and another fence on their left. The fence behind them had been removed to allow access for the cavalry. Crowninshiled, p. 155, 156.

Upperville. …Federal dismounted squadrons with their carbines delivered successive volleys, to which the Confederates with their pistols made but an ineffective response. McDonald, A History of the Laurel Brigade, p. 150.

Stuart General Orders Number 25, July 30, 1863.… The pistol should never be used in a charge, excepting when the enemy is beyond an impassable barrier near at hand, or by a man unhorsed in combat… Trout, p 50.

CSA Weapons Shortage. Early August 1863, Lee had 1700 men without weapons. Trout, p. 65.

Gettysburg, 2nd VA Cavalry. Letter from Col. Munford 2nd VA, says Companies C and D were sharpshooters. Ladd, The Bachelder Papers, Vol. III, p. 120

CS cavalry regiments had one squadron armed with carbines to fight dismounted. Coddington , Gettysburg: A Study in Command, p. 681.

Stuart's regiments usually had one company designated at sharpshooters. They were armed with rifles or carbines. Many men only had saber and pistols. When contact was made, they would dismount in a position of advantage from which they could assist their comrades. O'Neill, The Cavalry Battles of Aldie, Middleburg and Upperville, p 40. I have also read that an entire squadron would be so armed and dismounted.

Second and Third Virginia each had one squadron of sharpshooters deployed at Aldie. O'Neill, p. 50.

Robertson's brigade, the 4th and 5th North Carolina, were armed with sabers and Enfield rifles. They totaled about 900 men. It was the first fight for most of them. The extent of their armament with Enfields is unknown. O'Neill, 72, 127.

As Rosser was opposing Buford near Pot House, the absence of Boston's company of sharpshooters hampered Rosser. This would indicate that only Boston's men were armed to fight on foot. O'Neill, p. 111.

Other than Robertson, Stuart's regiments would have had only a couple of companies armed with a combination of carbines, rifles or shotguns. O'Neill, p. 127.

Reference made to sharpshooters of the 11th Virginia. O'Neill, p. 134.

CS cavalry regiments had one squadron armed with carbines to fight dismounted. Coddington, p. 681.

At Gettysburg, the 34th Virginia cavalry Battalion, like much of Jenkins Brigade, was armed with the US 1841 "Mississippi" rifles and some Confederate Richmonds and Enfields, plus revolvers (both .44 and .36 caliber) instead of the traditional cavalry weapons – carbines, pistols, and sabers. Nosworthy, Roll Call to Destiny, p. 172.

huesvans is correct about Fitz Lee's division being in the Valley in '64. These regiments were what had been Fitz Lee's Briagde and Jones' Brigade at Brandy Station.

But there was more. What had been Jenkins' Brigade at Gettysburg became McCausland's Brigade in the Valley.

I have to respectfully disagree with Lee494 that ACW cavalry was primarily scouts and fought dismounted whenever possible. Reconnaissance was extremely important and was probably overall the most important contribution they made. However, there was plenty of combat, particularly once the Army of the Potomac organized a cavalry corps.

Buford's dismounted action at Gettysburg is perhaps the best known cavalry action of the Civil War. But most of the cavalry fights I have read had a fairly even balance of mounted and dismounted action. Custer's Michigan Brigade had two regiments, the 5th and 6th, he thought of as his units to use for dismounted action and the 1st and 7th were his sabre regiments.

Kelly's Ford, Brandy Station, Aldie, Middleburg, Upperville, Hanover, Hunterstown, Gettysburg (East Cavalry Field and Farnsworth's charge), Falling Waters, Buckland Mills, Winchester, Tom's Brook, Cedar Creek, and the retreat to Appomattox, all had plenty of mounted as well as dismounted cavalry action. Some of it was against infantry. There were others, but I got tired of typing the list.

Their dearth of shoulder arms made much of the CS cavalry in 1863 fairly weak dismounted. Pistols are not so red hot for that kind of work when you opponent has a carbine.

Tom

huevans01115 Nov 2018 6:48 p.m. PST

Tom,

Thanks for that mass of information.

You mentioned that Custer split his Wolverine Bde into shock / sabre regts and dismounted fire regts. The ANV regts appeared to be split internally at the squadron level into carbine sub units and sabre / pistol sub units.

For the purposes of discussion, wouldn't the CSA simply have issued more men with firearms (including infantry rifles, if necessary), if they felt that their firepower was unequal to the Yanks in a mixed mounted / dismounted fight?

Lion in the Stars15 Nov 2018 7:19 p.m. PST

The problem was that the CSA didn't have the industrial capacity to build large numbers of firearms. They were reduced to buying abroad or using captured arms, OR having the troops bring a weapon bought on their own.

Admittedly, most American households at the time had at least one militia musket per adult male over 18 (required by law), in addition to shotguns or other hunting rifles.

Ryan T15 Nov 2018 7:43 p.m. PST

Tom,

Thank you for that listing. You are well ahead of me. I am still only gathering sources for a future project looking at cavalry tactics. I plan to look at both secondary sources and then get into memoirs, unit histories, and AARs from the ORs.

My initial readings agree with you in that long arms were usually found in "sharpshooter" companies or squadrons. The AARs I have read seem to suggest several of these units could be brought together in an ad hoc "battalion" under the command of the senior officer in the units. The sharpshooters would then work in conjunction with the mounted squadrons of the regiment(s). As the war progressed the number of sharpshooter squadrons in each regiment increased as the appropriate arms became increasingly available.

And it was not only the Confederates that used this approach. The AoP's cavalry seems to have followed a similar pattern, although they of course had much better access to carbines in greater quantities.

A comparison of Union cavalry troop strengths and arms in June 1864 shows this pattern. In Eric Wittenberg's Glory Enough for All: Sheridan's Second Raid and the Battle of Trevilian Station is a listing of the regimental strengths of each of the participating Federal cavalry regiments. Trevilian Station occurred on June 11 and 12. On June 30 a return was filed listing all long-arms in the possession of the Army of the Potomac cavalry. This list can be found on pages 46-47 of John McAulay, Carbines of the U. S. Cavalry,1861-1905, (1996).

The following list first gives the Trevilian Station strengths, then subtracts the casualties (in parenthesis) from that engagement. This derived strength is then compared to the list of each regiment's long-arms which is also given as a percentage.

It is surprising to note that as late as mid-1864 a fair segment of the AoP cavalry was still not armed with long arms. I am not so sure it was just a shortage of arms but instead this was a choice to always fight with a mounted component working in tandem with dismounted troops.

For us gamers it suggests that we need to rethink the number of dismounted figures we can deploy on the table.

Trevilian Station

1st Division – BG Alfred Torbert

1st Brigade – BG George Custer
1st Michigan 540 (94) 446 304 (68%) *
5th Michigan 441 (149) 292 152 (52%)
6th Michigan 342 (89) 253 246 (97%)
7th Michigan 323 (74) 249 92 (37%) *
* Designated as "Sabre Regiments"

2nd Brigade – Col Thomas Devin
4th New York 252 (43) 209 182 (87%)
6th New York 351 (34) 317 238 (75%)
9th New York 428 (48) 380 230 (60%)
17th Pennsylvania 549 (26) 523 241 (46%)

Reserve Brigade – BG Wesley Merritt
19th New York 435 (82) 353 244 (69%)
6th Pennsylvania 343 (67) 276 195 (71%)
1st U S 372 (41) 331 129 (40%)
2nd U S 288 (47) 241 204 (85%)
5th U S 158 (5) 153 89 (58%)

2nd Division – BG David Gregg

1st Brigade – BG Henry Davies
1st Massachusetts 368 (2) 366 404 (110%)
1st New Jersey 673 (5) 668 288 (43%)
10th New York 441 (19) 422 243 (57%)
6th Ohio 665 (0) 665 211 (32%)

2nd Brigade – Col Irvin Gregg
1st Maine 446 (1) – 445 358 (80%)
2nd Pennsylvania 544 (4) 540 392 (73%)
4th Pennsylvania 406 (32) 374 203 (54%)
8th Pennsylvania 412 (25) 387 191 (49%)
16th Pennsylvania 420 (13) 407 392 (96%)

huevans01115 Nov 2018 9:36 p.m. PST

Admittedly, most American households at the time had at least one militia musket per adult male over 18 (required by law), in addition to shotguns or other hunting rifles.

well, if someone lugged in a militia musket from the War of 1812, it would at least be good for firewood, I guess.

donlowry16 Nov 2018 9:14 a.m. PST

Custer's Michigan Brigade had two regiments, the 5th and 6th, he thought of as his units to use for dismounted action and the 1st and 7th were his sabre regiments.

The 6th and at least 1 battalion of the 5th were armed with Spencer repeating rifles (not carbines), which explains why they were the natural choices for dismounted work.

Lion in the Stars16 Nov 2018 1:35 p.m. PST

@Huevans: Would have been a .58cal, so at least it could have taken government ammo, even if it was a smoothbore.

huevans01116 Nov 2018 8:06 p.m. PST

@Huevans: Would have been a .58cal, so at least it could have taken government ammo, even if it was a smoothbore.

Are you going to hit anything at 200 yards when those Yankees are ducking and dodging behind fences and trees and firing back with their Sharps??

I'm ditching that smoothbore or giving it to the militia.

Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP17 Nov 2018 5:43 a.m. PST

Great stuff here. I hate to see it about to disappear off the bottom of the page. Running a game all day starting soon. NO time to reply to some interesting posts.

Tom

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