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"Teutonic Knights - A Correction" Topic

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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian01 Nov 2018 11:54 a.m. PST

Charles Markuss writes:

I have studied German-language sources extensively and can say with certainty that Teutonic knights, and also the Livonian Order did NOT NOT NOT ride caparisoned or armoured horses, or allow personal heraldry or decorations on helmets. Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky has a lot to answer for! I have mentioned this to a number of manufacturers, and posted stuff on the old fanaticus website, but the errors persist. Modelling figures with caparisoned horses, crests etc on helmets produces pretty figures but they are inaccurate; might as well give them bazookas.

Glengarry501 Nov 2018 12:35 p.m. PST

Oh, you're no fun anymore…

Ragbones Supporting Member of TMP01 Nov 2018 12:42 p.m. PST

I'd love some Teutonic Knights armed with bazookas! That'd be great. grin

Swampster01 Nov 2018 2:00 p.m. PST

Should be Panzerschrecks, surely?

I've read the same as Charles, and did try some without, but this was one of those occasions where I let myself be swayed by the look.

GurKhan01 Nov 2018 2:28 p.m. PST

Andrzej Nowakowski, in Arms and armour in the medieval Teutonic Order's state in Prussia (Lodz 1994) thinks otherwise, having found references to textile housings and plate horse-armour in the Marienburg inventories.

Swampster01 Nov 2018 3:33 p.m. PST

I'd forgotten I'd read Nowakowski. Reference to housings is on p106.
The quotes of equipment do seem to be textile housings – rosdecke being the word. His examples of iconography are less convincing – the only (probable) TK on the Apocalypse picture link is the one with the cross on his crest and his horse is mostly hidden. From the little of its head that can be seen it is probably caparisoned, but so are all the other horses in the picture. It may even be one of the officers of the Order – Nowakowski says that at a later date than this picture two of them are known to have horse armour, so they may have been distinguished by textile caparisons at this earlier date.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP01 Nov 2018 6:15 p.m. PST

The caparisoned horses look much cooler, so I shall continue to covet them, no matter what some say.

I'm with GurKhan, fake news, or no…….

In such cold climes, one can certainly make an argument for fabric caparisons at the very least, plus, in the snow, it'd help to camouflage them too!


Twilight Samurai01 Nov 2018 8:07 p.m. PST

Now that we've thrown off the tyranny of historical fact my knights can now be led by this guy!


Griefbringer02 Nov 2018 1:24 a.m. PST

plus, in the snow, it'd help to camouflage them too!

Medieval knights did not always priorise camouflage very high…

foxweasel02 Nov 2018 6:56 a.m. PST

It's easier to prove something did exist than something didn't, who knows how many medieval manuscripts, bibles and psalters have been lost and how many of those had illustrations of Teutonic knights with fancy helmets. The Sobiovsky bible of 1237 is a good example, it was packed with glorious pictures of ornate helmet crests, unfortunately my youngest fed it to the dog.

Personal logo Unlucky General Supporting Member of TMP02 Nov 2018 11:36 a.m. PST

With the greatest of respect to those who make a study of such things, can any of us be absolutely so sure of anything when our reference point is so far back?

foxweasel02 Nov 2018 11:47 a.m. PST

With the greatest of respect to those who make a study of such things, can any of us be absolutely so sure of anything when our reference point is so far back?

That's what my attempt at humour was about mate, nobody knows 100%, new discoveries are made all the time. Look how Roman soldiers are said to look like now compared to 30 years ago.

Cerdic02 Nov 2018 12:51 p.m. PST

Who is Charles Markuss anyway? And why should we take any notice of what he's got to say?

Twilight Samurai02 Nov 2018 9:13 p.m. PST

Yeah! Charles Markuss was made up by a 13th century Monk with too much time on his hands.

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