"Italian Wars: Pavises?" Topic

Did anyone use the pavise in the Italian Wars period? I can't find any resources that would support this notion, but I find it interesting. In the preceding century, it seems pavises were common for protecting missile troops, particularly in Italy. Is there any evidence for their use in the early 16th century?

Yes, many nations – foot troops with spears, crossbowmen, etc..

Not sure I can think of any mention of pavises in Italy at this time, though I'd be surprised if they weren't used in sieges at least.

Outside Italy but in the period, look for pictures of the Battle of Wenzenbach, 1504 – such as link – it's a popular subject for art of the period. The Bohemian troops on the Landshut side deployed behind a line of pavises. There are also surviving 16th-century pavises in German collections – link

The Bishop of Durham described the Scots front rank pikes at Flodden 1513 with pavises.

That's a problem with anything that is so commonplace that it doesn't get mentioned. Chroniclers tend to note the unusual (such as the Scots using them – aping French practice).

That's a problem with anything that is so commonplace that it doesn't get mentioned.

I'm not sure how far that's the explanation here, because by contrast there are a lot of references to Italian pavises in the 14th- and 15th centuries, in chroniclers' battle-accounts and in administrative documents.

My penneth worth. For what it's worth.

They don't get mentioned, so I'd assume that they were not used, especially in open battle, after 1500. My thinking behind the decline is this:

1. The arquebus was rapidly taking over from the crossbow – largely due to significant difference in the costs of production – and pavises don't stop bullets.

2. Where no crossbows exist, pavises will not exist: I tend not to field Italian mercenaries, Spanish, Germans or Swiss with crossbow after 1509, and the arquebus was probably in the majority before then (Spanish not post 1503, Swiss and German at about the same time). Few battles involve Italian City militia but I might stretch the use of the crossbow in their case by a few years, but even in militia units the crossbow would be automatically replaced with arquebus, due to cost, as soon as new weapons were required.

3. Old fashioned French: It was only the French who persisted with crossbows deep into the Italian Wars, and after Pavia in 1525 even they saw the writing on the wall and the crossbow all but disappeared from European battlefields completely. In the case of French [usually Gascon] crossbowmen, they are never described as using Pavises, possibly for reasons of mobility.

4. Artillery changes the nature of sieges until modern (Vauban style) fortifications come into existence: Following the French "decent into Italy" in 1495 the nature of siege warfare changed substantially. The new massed, and very mobile, French artillery breached Italian walls, from beyond bow shot, in a remarkably short time – it's how the French got to Naples so quickly. After the wall was breached it was typically stormed in short order. This made the tactic of sniping from behind pavises over a prolonged siege redundant, so pavises were no longer required.

IIRC, I think some used the crossbow up until around 1515, or so.

Perhaps mixed units in armies of crossbow and arquebuses at that time.

Ok, so they essentially weren't used after the matchlock arquebus became common?

Just to confuse you even more than you probably already are: Lack of evidence doesn't prove non existence.

Welcome to the Italian Wars! There isn't as much information about this period as you might expect. It's still a 'medieval world' when it comes to contemporary battle accounts, etc.

If you were to field crossbows with pavises in your Italian Wars army, you would not be laughed at. I've certainly seen them fielded, and I've bought them myself – though I chose not to field them as pavises, passe.

I'm going to put my pavises on the backs of some early wars Italian infantry, actually WoR types figures armed with various polearms (bills, poleaxes, boar spears, partisans, etc.) I have kicking about the place. When mixed in with oval shielded types (about 15% pavises) they will not look too much amiss – they will not class as pavise armed – and should give these units (x 24 figures each) a 'jumbled mercenary' look. I'll think I could use them as Italian field infantry up to 1503-ish (perhaps a bit later, to make up numbers when required), city militias thereafter.

Personally, I will not field pavises with crossbows until I get firm evidence of their use in the field (I don't ever do sieges).

link

Yes, Stoppage, that's a good example of a late one. It's in my local military museum. But like most Pavises, it's sell by date is 'best before the Italian Wars'. The pavise is 1471 – 1499. The Italian Wars are 1494 – 1559.

Afaik there were no pavies used in the Italian wars (1494 onwards), and crossbows were rare to non-existant except with the French, some Italian levies and siege situations (due to a lack of powder rather then by choice here).

I always feel the "Landsknechts crossbow" are as usefull as the famous "English crossbowmen" of Azincourt.

For the 15th century mounted crossbowmen were quite common, though, especially in Germany. I am quite sure they did not use the Pavise, though. The last battle with Pavised depicted is afaik the battle of Wenzenbach 1504, part of the Landshut succession war.

link

They were used by Bohemian mercenaries that retreated to a defensive position and successfully fought of knights, before the Landsknechts defeated them.