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"Getting Stuck!" Topic


20 Posts

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760 hits since 22 Oct 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

UshCha23 Oct 2018 12:12 a.m. PST

So even after 10 years you can get into uncharted water! Boxer APC crossing a Minor obsticle got stuck, not a high chance but hey somtimes it happens. It ended up just one of those days, no need for tea break card it unstuck and immediately got stuck again, true imitaion of life. However just to make it a real pain, its troops needed supporting fire while stuck. We decided that although it was not moving it could not fire its weapons station as the crew were too busy trying to get unstuck as while stuck the vehicle was a potential sitting duck to enemy fire. Plus it may have been at an unusual attitude so fire control may not be all it could be. Ignore the rules, what would be the real world situation be?.

Thanks in advance.

deephorse23 Oct 2018 1:23 a.m. PST

How has it got stuck? Why is it stuck? Is it at an unusual attitude and unable to fire back? How close are friends? Are they in similar vehicles? How long is a piece of string? All these things, and more, will determine what would really happen next.

Richard Baber23 Oct 2018 2:41 a.m. PST

Crew considers abandoning their "bullet magnet" before it takes an ATGM or several RPGs and they get cooked………

Achtung Minen23 Oct 2018 4:14 a.m. PST

Up to the referee. I love coming up with a different ruling everytime as it gives every game a unique feel and provides story fodder for years to come.

That said, I would probably let the player roll a die and only give a worse result if he rolls really low.

Legion 423 Oct 2018 4:54 a.m. PST

Supporting fires and/or smoke rounds to cover the recovery of any "stuck" vehicle. And the recovery can be done by another organic vehicle in the unit. E.g. another PC, etc. from the unit. Or if possible and better yet a VTR from attached Maint assets. E.g. US M88 and or M578.

But if given the choice you'd rather not try to recover a vehicle under fire. The enemy knows it will get a shot at taking out two or more vehicles, crews, etc., while this is going on. Better to leave it be and the troops take cover, etc.

However, for gaming purposes we have used a Dangerous Terrain Test[DTT] Chart of some sort. While crossing a DTT roll as it enters the DT and then again when it attempts to leave. And the DT will probably incur a movement penalty. Like 2x the movement speed/cost.


If DTT is failed, then the vehicle can roll again at the end of the turn. And can do this every turn until it is freed/unstuck.

DDT Chart could very by what kind of terrain is being crossed as well as vehicle type and even Infantry.

E.g. Roll 1D6, 1-4 it enters then exits the DT, roll for both If 5,6 is rolled it's stuck … And roll again to get free at end of the next turn …

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2018 4:55 a.m. PST

The real world answer is, "It depends."

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2018 5:02 a.m. PST

Agree with 79th PA – if there was no imminent threat, crew could work at it and call for help

If the enemy was raining hellfire on it, any sensible crew would bail and head for the high country

Legion 423 Oct 2018 5:26 a.m. PST

Yes, as I said, if given the choice you'd rather not try to recover a vehicle under fire. The enemy knows it will get a shot at taking out two or more vehicles, crews, etc., while this is going on. Better to leave it be and the troops take cover, etc.

If need be, better to just lose the Track and not the troops it carried along with it. Or anyone else trying to recover it.

Thresher0123 Oct 2018 9:14 a.m. PST

Reminds me of the famous Jagdpanzer IV pic, in the Ardennes, where it is trying to cross a creek, since presumably a bridge has been knocked out.

If under significant enemy fire, it'd be abandoned.

When/if that goes away, the crew would probably try to retrieve it, assuming they're still around.

Khaki0823 Oct 2018 1:32 p.m. PST

A real world example of this is the Marine tanks in Nasiriyah in 2003, where multiple vehicles became bogged and had to be retrieved under fire. Described in Ambush Alley by Tim Prichard. Interesting read.

Wolfhag23 Oct 2018 7:10 p.m. PST

Khaki,
Were they bogged down in a sewer field?

Wolfhag

UshCha23 Oct 2018 7:18 p.m. PST

Thanks for that, some usefull answers. I do tend to be a bit vauge in these things to get a wide responce. In the actual instance the vehical was "stuck" crossing a difficult linear obsticle, in this case a significant earth banked hedge line, not as bad or consistant as a bocarge hedge. The rules anticipate this sort of obsticle as being crossable but in effect may take a few attampts. While the vehicle was not at the time under fire itself, it makes sence to allow the unit to immediately fire its own smoke to buy it some time to get unstuck or wait for a more permanet smoke cover to arrive.

Certainly as we anticipated the key issue for the crew is to get clear of the obsticle (assuming its not complely stuck) rather than continuing on its primary mission. In general we don't employ permanent bogging as a possibilty in most scenarios. In a typical scenario permanent bogging could/would take the game out of the set of interesing games. In the real world the loss of too many vehicles would be to abandon the mission, A hoepless result half way through an evening game, nothing to do for the rest of the evening.

In more extreme scenarios like mine clearance we have had tanks proving the route immobilised, however in those extreeme cases, as you define it a VTR (I had to look this up) a Buffel was available to cover such a situation. I had to commision one specificaly to get such a model in 1/144 scale.

While an umpire may be ideal none of us woiuld want to waste good gaming time being an umpire, "
do not whatch" is our motivation.

Thanks again Brian.

Khaki0824 Oct 2018 4:51 a.m. PST

Wolfhag, thats the one, the tanks reached an open area within the town which turned out to be a crusted-over sewage pond. They bogged several M1's, and several more trying to tow them out, as well as a couple of Humvees. The recovery tanks had also been detached from the column earlier in the move.

There was no Vehicle ATGW or MBT threat, which makes the situation a bit different from UshCha's, but there was certainly little or no suggestion of abandoning the vehicles. Indeed they were urgently required elsewhere on the battlefield.

Skarper24 Oct 2018 5:21 a.m. PST

Now that would be something hard to incorparate in a rules set. You have falleninto a vast pool of ****. No….literally.

Legion 424 Oct 2018 7:20 a.m. PST

as you define it a VTR
Vehicle Tracked Recovery, as I said the US ARMY, e.g. has M578 Light VTR[nicknames the "Cherry Picker", because of its crane] and the M88 Heavy VTR. See this GHQ link ghqmodels.com/store/n27.html

As well as a wheeled recovery truck. A 5 Ton with crane. And many M35 Deuce&1/2s and M54 5 Ton trucks have a reel of heavy cable on the front bumper to also use for recovery.

Again, the easiest and generally the "most realistic" way to incorporate getting "stuck" is come up with a DTT chart(s). As I used in my example. Basically pretty simple if you just want to KISS, as I posted as we have. 1-4 clears the obstacle, stream, etc. And 5,6. You stuck, not going anywhere until you get unstuck as again I already posted.


Having served in 4 Inf Bns when on active duty in my very distant youth, '79-'90. old fart 1 Air Assault and then 3 Mech, I've seen and had a number of vehicles stuck. From an M151 Jeep to an M60 or M1IP MBT and even a M88 Heavy Recovery Vehicle. That's why even in a Mech Bn you have 2 M88s !!

We used to joke, a 4 wheel drive vehicle just takes you twice as long to get it stuck. But you can still do it … evil grin


So again KISS …

Lion in the Stars24 Oct 2018 2:15 p.m. PST

We used to joke, a 4 wheel drive vehicle just takes you twice as long to get it stuck. But you can still do it … evil grin

Joke I heard is that a 4-wheel-drive would get you stuck in a place you couldn't even get to in a 2-wheel-drive. Either one is about right!

Reminds me, I need to start saving up for new shocks for my Jeep, it's bouncing around too much these days.

And let's not forget the old 4-wheeler magazine reader photos section "Worst Stuck". The 'winner' one month was an Abrams sunk into a mudhole up to the driver's hatch!

Legion 424 Oct 2018 2:50 p.m. PST

Yeah, you can get just about anything stuck without even trying at times …

I saw somewhere an IDF Merkava stuck up to it driver's hatch too. Wouldn't want to have been the recovery crews on jobs like those ! evil grin

RudyNelson24 Oct 2018 3:39 p.m. PST

With a M113, it was common to get stuck if the freak guards used to help float were down. If they were up, the getting stuck was less common but it did happen.

Now I worked with M114s in the National Guard in the mid-1960s. Those models were always getting stuck due to the center area bottoming out.

Getting stuck was not taken lightly. The main fear was that you would throw or break a track while trying to get loose.

Mark 124 Oct 2018 4:29 p.m. PST

Some of us may recall when someone grabbed an M60 out of a Guard Armory in the San Diego area and went on a rampage, rolling over cars, trucks, RVs, fire hydrants, etc etc.

It was back in 1995 IIRC. After crushing dozens of vehicles, and with a Sherriff's / PD department completely bewildered about how they were going to stop him (you mean the police didn't have ATGWs in California in the 1990s? I blame Hillary!), he was finally brought to a halt when he tried to drive over the retaining wall in the center divide of a freeway, and wound up bottoming his tank.

Then, one of the LEOs present, who was a recent service veteran, climbed up on the back of the tank, opened one of the turret hatches and ended the event with his service revolver.

YouTube link

He bottoms it at about 2:45.

So … in your favorite rules, what are the die role modifiers for close-assaulting an MBT with a .38 special?

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Legion 425 Oct 2018 5:21 a.m. PST

The main fear was that you would throw or break a track while trying to get loose.
Yes that adds to the nightmare. We had that happen to an M88 in the ROK ! huh? Took 3 days to get Un*bleeped* ! The Horror ! The horror !

Crushed that secondary road like peanut brittle too! We had to pay for that. I had to do a maneuver damage report and go to JAG. To get the $ to pay for the damage/destruction. We made no friends in that village that day … evil grin

someone grabbed an M60 out of a Guard Armory in the San Diego area and went on a rampage,
Yeah I remember that video on the news. He "hulled" the M60 on that retaining wall. And as Mark said the LEO shot him dead. Chances are if the LEO did that today … he would have been sued ! evil grin

LEO w/.38 : 1

M60 MBT : 0

Save for all the collateral damage to cars, etc., etc. I'm sure those were some interesting insurance claims.
"Am I covered for my car being run over by a Main Battle Tank ?"

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