"Chain of Command Complexity" Topic

Does anyone else think Chain of Command is too complex? I mean the command dice/command and control system.

I don't, I rather enjoy the challenges that it presents. These are my favourite rules for the scale and period.

I have no problems with it. My go to rules for action at this level.

I don't. I find the command dice the key aspect of the game. I'm not sure it could be simplified that much. But if you do, there are many other games available.

Perhaps you could give an example or two of what you find too complex?

I always found it rather simple.

I have never understood it…. maybe you have to be with someone who plays it through with you.

Mister Muppet, what other games are you most familiar with? I CoC it comes across to some people as "complex" because there are many options and decisions for the player he may not have been exposed to before and you need to know some real-life tactics to use the full potential of the system. Their videos are well done and should solve the problem for you.

I've run into the same thing with the rules I'm working on. Since I'm using the concepts and nomenclature from military manuals (very little borrowed from other games) the players need to understand the timing of real-life actions and the associated Risk-Reward decisions to gain the initiative. It seems complex because it's a different approach.

Wolfhag

I don't but I guess if you are used to the games with no friction – everybody moves and moves a set distance – then it may be a leap.

There are a lot of folk playing at our club and no one has complained of complexity as yet.

I'm baffled by people thinking it is complex. I can understand not liking it but I had no trouble understanding it – but I have players in my group that don't ever seem to grasp it.

I think once you bend your brain around the Command Dice as a nothing more than a flexible resource that you spend to activate units, the central concept of the game is pretty easy. While that is a big departure from how most games do unit activation, I don't think it's complex at all.

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are equating different to what they are use to as complex.

Not only do I find CoC simple, I also find it quite intuitive. Rarely need to refer to the QRS, let alone the rulebook. Mind you, I've been playing miniature wargames, and boardgames, for quite some time now.

I don't think the command system is complex at all, and I like simple games. I do think sometimes that other parts are. I think that is because I'm more used to non-historical games where you can make a system that works for the game and it doesn't have as many historical constraints for behavior.

For example, CoC has completely different rules for shooting infantry and vehicle weapons. I know they're different, but most of the time, I can get along with a system that gives different results that work as far as imagination goes, but uses the same kinds of rolls. More dice, higher modifiers, etc. Grenades are another kind of weapon that have very different rules in CoC. Instead of making them merely short range weapons with a certain number of dice, they are built into the command system. Actually, this is a win, because they are a lot more interesting this way, without being overdone. Maybe that's the same for vehicle rules, because you get whether the crew just abandoned the vehicle, or whether it is on fire, or just had to back up, or other different results.

I have tried to come up with why I get confused sometimes with stuff to remember for CoC, and haven't had a good description. Maybe it is because another set of rules I like is from One Page Rules. :) But CoC is far more interesting.

While some folks may think CoC's great strength is historical feel, I think they've just put together a really interesting and exciting game. I just have to bend it to my non-historical purposes (though the Quar should have a historical feel).

My son has moved away, so haven't played a game at home for a while. (I was playing with some other folks who knew it well enough that I could follow along.) Expecting him back for Thanksgiving, so I should keep track of what we have to keep looking up. If I do that, I'll report back here.

But my main takeaway from this game is that I play it because it is fun.

andy

Agreed – excellent fun game. IMHO playing it is not complex – but looking up something in the rule book can be :-)

The perceived complexity can be around the decision making process. In many ways the game should be understood as "command decision", but as that name already exists for a set of rules it wouldn't be appropriate to call it that. The command dice put you under pressure to make the best decisions under the circumstances they present. Combat is confusing and chaotic and CoC asks you to make the most of your command and tactical abilities to weave a coherent response to a given situation. Each phase you have a lot of options, they are not always ideal, although at times the stars do align.

The key is to have a plan – remember, the dice should not dictate your plan, you should dictate how you will best use the dice to execute your plan. It is up to you try to create some sense of order and direction amidst the wild and unpredictable maelstrom that is low level combat.

The complexity can lie in putting together the best chain of command to get the job done. The dice simply say ‘this is what's happening right now' but you can influence that in so many ways – by your decision when and where to deploy; where to locate your most influential junior commanders, and, when to make the most of the prevailing circumstances – doing nothing and waiting for a better moment is a viable option.

Nope! My go-to rule set for WWII Skirmish.

P.

No, it's pretty easy. I don't like it much, but it's not hard.

Set up 4x6 table, end up playing in 3x3, shoot til someone breaks. I may just give it a rest until the next version. Of course that will be awhile as they have committed to doing all the theatres and time frames ala Flames of War. I know, you don't need to tell me, I'm playing it all wrong. I sincerely hope it sells like mad all the way to Berlin and Okinawa.

CoC is pretty easy to learn.
What is difficult is to know how to play it well.
If you donīt play with all the options available to you (covering fire, interruption, smoke, going tactical, etc.) you may well end up in a protracted and VERY BORING firefight.
If you apply and combine all those elements the game is very good.

Like most wargames, CoC is best when the objective is something other than "destroy!" Games where you are forced to move, or where you have to capture a specific point on the board, or where there are win conditions other than simply breaking your opponent's will to fight are almost always more interesting, regardless of system.

This is why CoC really shines in campaign-based play; if your casualties matter from game-to-game, you are always faced with the secondary objective of "preserve my own force" regardless of whatever else it is you're trying to accomplish. You might very well take the bridge at all hazard, but in so doing you've ended up crippling yourself for later battles in the campaign. The "At the Sharp End" supplement for CoC is absolutely fantastic, and is in many ways a game-changer.

Around here, we've found it very easy to understand, and have had no problem picking it up without any guidance past TFL and Beasts of War videos on youtube. Once a couple of us got the hang of it, we're easily able to take two new players and get them going on a game, especially with the basic game mechanics, in a very short time.

We've recently started working our way through the Pint-sized campaigns, starting with Old Hickory(Probably not the best to start with), and have been having a blast. we'll be into "29, Let's Go!' next, and we're excited for the US to be on the offensive for a change. Overall, great rules, and the campaign system makes them better than any of a comparable scale that I've found in common circulation.

Maybe novel would be a better way to describe it and therefore hard to wrap your brain around if you have different mental models for how Wargames are "supposed to" work. In and of themselves they aren't complicated at all and I have never had anyone have any difficulty picking them up even at convention games. I think they are quite ingenious actually.