"Cold War America Lesson-The Vietnam War (1945 – 1975)" Topic

Of possible interest?

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Amicalement
Armand

president Kennedy wanted to pull out. but he was assassinated before that could happen. interesting course curriculum. thanks.

Kennedy did not propose pulling out. This seems to be a popular myth. LBJ escalated the war and went for more conventional forces while Kennedy had favoured special forces etc.

I personally don't think had he lived the war would have been much different. Special Forces could never contain the regular forces coming down from the North and the local and main force NLF who became pretty well organised by the mid-60s.

Kennedy would have had to accept defeat in about 1965 or follow a similar path to LBJ. Since the entire point of the US involvement was to save face and prestige [my opinion but there is good evidence for this] any early end to the war was unlikely, unthinkable even.

Such a sad and shameful chapter in US history. And tragic for Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia of course.

I don't blame the troops who were just young and misled for the most part.

Anyway – when I get a bit of time I will read thru this document. I'm curious how they are treating the war in US education.

Such a sad and shameful chapter in US history.

IMO the sad and shameful part was primarily the draft and the way it was handled. Had there been no draft the Anti-War Movement would have been confined to Jane Fonda, Joan Baez, etc. Most in the US, did only not know where those places in Indo-China were. But really could have cared less. What went on in a 3rd world country on the other side of the world.

I don't blame the troops who were just young and misled for the most part.

Yes, no one should blame the troops, most were drafted off the street, because they didn't have the money to get a college deferment, etc., etc. Which meant many were poor and couldn't go to school. Regardless many fought and many died bravely, and did their duty … Sadly for an unappreciative and abusive US population.

As far as mislead … they were drafted and did their duty in most cases. It was those in DC that misled everyone. And in many cases DC micromanaged and/or tied the hands of the Generals in many situations.

The scars of that war still haunts many in the US. And I'm proud to say I was trained by and served along side many of those who fought there.

As far as the losses incurred to the Indo-Chinese … It was a war of attrition in a tropical jungle environment. And losses to them, those that were the enemy would have been high regardless. They pitted their forces against the firepower of one of the highest tech militaries on the planet.

I'm curious how they are treating the war in US education.

Like much of US history it is glossed over, truncated, polarized and biased in many cases. If talked about at all. This war although many Vets who served there are still alive. I see them at the VA all the time. It may as well have happened on the dark side of the moon. And media coverage is generally limited and in some cases skewed and biased.

I always will take the opportunity to say things about this conflict. As I feel I owe it to the many Vets I know who served there and see often. They are good people and I respect them as I do any Vets I see from any of the conflicts the US has fought in. Many God bless them … And the dead RIP …

We've been over this ground before. And we always seem to end up at cross purposes.

People who got drafted had very little choice. Many decided to volunteer knowing they would otherwise be drafted. The climate in the early 60s was not what it became later – support for US involvement was high and remained high until post 1968. The majority of those sent to Vietnam were at least willing to go and given a very small percentage ended up in the front line the risks were not perceived as being so high. Losses were also low at first, with about 50% of the US killed occurring post 1968!

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And much of the opposition was about not wanting to risk life and limb [and mind] in a war nobody could justify clearly.

A very small number of people opposed the war on moral grounds. Most people were deeply ignorant about what was being done in their name. Not entirely their fault as the media was not really doing its job very well even then. Now we have many more sources available so it is harder to keep the lid on things like was possible in the 60s-70s. Many of the journalists who caught flak for reporting the war simply reported the truth. Massacres were happening. Atrocities were commonplace. US policy made them inevitable. The evidence was and is incontrovertible.

While post 1975 Vietnam was no paradise can you imagine what a divided country would have been? Or one united under the murderously kleptocratic GVN regime? There was just no end game for the US.

At best I can see a long term garrison similar to that in South Korea only without the support of the majority of the population. Many Koreans want the US gone [as do many Japanese especially Okinawans] but they do not wage a guerilla war against US personnel.

I don't want to go over all this again, and think we do not substantially disagree.

I do think those who risk their lives in a nation's armed forces deserve to be taken care of when they are unable to take care of themselves, and the US record on this is quite poor, and always has been. The US will pay for the wars, but not the aftermaths. [Not alone in this either].

One thing which must be hard to bear is the more the surviving troops find out, the less valid reasons they can find for their service and the losses born. They are left with knowing they did their duty, and not let down their comrades. Maybe that's enough. I hope they find some peace.

Don't let politicians run the war, or have a say on tactical and operational decisions.

Reinstate treason rules and punishments, and mete them out against others that play for the other side, or take glam photos while sitting on enemy guns and vehicles.

The only real thing that could have been done to change the course of the war would have been to dump a heck of a lot more money (like, say $2 USDbillion) into South Vietnam in 1961 for mass propaganda programs and to really fund the Strategic Hamlet program, as well as buying a lot more helicopters. In 1963 the Strategic Hamlet program was already on the verge of causing a disaster for the NLF, but Diem and Nhu goofed by allowing too much favor to the Catholics. Believe it or not, though the coup did a bit of good socially, it caused a serious loss of traction on the war front.

People who got drafted had very little choice. Many decided to volunteer knowing they would otherwise be drafted.

Yes, many volunteered for a number of reasons …
Including 30,000 Canadians served in the US Military during that war.

The majority of those sent to Vietnam were at least willing to go and given a very small percentage ended up in the front line the risks were not perceived as being so high.

Many were willing … and over 58,000 died and 3 times that WIA. But again the anti-war movement was primarily anti-draft …

Losses were also low at first, with about 50% of the US killed occurring post 1968!

Very well aware of that. As I too studied the war and again even were trained and served with those that were there, including Tet …

I do think those who risk their lives in a nation's armed forces deserve to be taken care of when they are unable to take care of themselves,

Yes and the VA has significantly improved since the end of the war. As I said, I talk to Vietnam Vets, almost daily … Some at the VA, some at the YMCA, etc.

We've been over this ground before. And we always seem to end up at cross purposes.

I don't want to go over all this again, and think we do not substantially disagree.

Yep … 'nuff said …

Don't let politicians run the war, or have a say on tactical and operational decisions.

Very much this.

The politicians are supposed to decide overall strategic goals, not even operational goals.

When we got a new XO on my last sub, we gave him a framed quote from Henry Ford: "Once you decide what you want to do, find the best person for that job and stay out of his way." He stayed out of our way.

Yes, let us do our jobs …

As a sidebar … the crutches, walker and cane I got from the VA … were made in Vietnam. I'm sure the irony is not lost on those who served there and are using a cane, etc. because of it …