"4th Edition" Topic

What's the general consensus of FoW 4ed as compared to the 3ed rules? It's streamlined but is it a better game because of this or has it lost something?

I realise this is very subjective but I'm trying to figure out if I should stick with 3ed, buy 4ed, or buy Battlegroup.

Personally, I enjoyed my few forays with 3ed, and I was getting to grips with the rules, but I hear that 4ed fixed a few 'traps' that 3ed had. And, if I am honest, I would like the rules to be a little less complex.

I like the stats on cards but the point system is wonky, the release of books and models is following the GW way of doing business. I compared my old Stalingrad with the new Enemy at the gates, the old book had both armies and was cheaper. They could have revised V3 instead of releasing the mess of V4. Just my personal opinion.

There does seem to be a more negative slant toward v4. Perhaps I'll be better of sticking with what I already have.

Thanks for the reply Sneakgun

Our group (8-10 players) stayed firmly with Ver3.0 and have developed Ver3.2x. Most house or group rules cover aspects of the game not covered.

Some reasons for why I avoided Ver4.0:

1) Game became way too much towards the tourny scene and away from historical even by FOW standards.

2) The wealth of material under Ver3.0… and can include the earlier versions, vastly outnumbers, in detail, historical background, difference of subject and ease of use. Ver4.0 will most likely will never see half the .pdf forces documents I have saved on the computer plus years of "outside Battlefront" material produced and posted on the internet. Think you will see Ver4.0 of the Jewish battalions in NA?

3) The movement of Ver4.0 vs. Ver3.0 with infantry especially. Leg infantry can in some cases out walk tanks. The movement options …. another story.

4) The Ver4.0 points system is total junk if you desire some grainer equipment options. Mixing the older Ver3.0 to Ver4.0 leds to some weird options and costs.

5) Drops entire teams from the organization charts….. I purchased them, I painted them, now they cannot be used. That alone killed the game for many players from going over to Ver4.0 near me. Sorry…. a Pak battery will have a command structure with the platoon….. now it just has cannon and crew?

6) The cards….. pure tabletop clutter. I prefer a clean look to my miniature tabletop action. No drinks, no food, limited charts etc. Table ready for photos at any time and not requiring a clean up. Otherwise play a board game is my view.

7) The cards are needed for the special options. This is marketing by BF. Place the material in the supplements or MRB. Ver3.0 had none of the cards or special rules on cards stuff.

8) Why should I purchase again the same books and material for a system which I have complete. I have almost every BF book printed from Ver1.0 to Ver3.0. I never bothered to collect the free Ver4.0 booklets as I knew Ver4.0 wasn't for me or the gaming group.

9) Good thing about playing Ver3.0…. everything is discounted now with the release of Ver4.0. Considering the rate which BF is releasing Ver4.0 material…. it will be a new decade before they cover anywhere close to the material pool of Ver3.0.

10) Trouble now with FOW….. there are two player camps and the divided camps total of players is smaller then the former Ver3.0 player base total. Thats says the entire picture in my mind.

11) Play what is going on in your gaming neighborhood. Only Ver4.0 will have support (with rule corrections and omissions) going forward. No Ver3.0 tourneys I know of but I don't care. I arrange six games at regional convention for Ver3.0 rules based on historical background scenarios. Large table format games which are total eye candy for the convention gamers. I generally outdraw the pool of Ver4.0 gamers for some of my themed games. Even the Ver4.0 players join in, but without their Ver4.0 rule changes. Still… when a Ver4.0 player asks why the Pak 40 platoon has a command team…. I smile…. because their historical organization or OOB had them, and not just three Pak 40 cannon is my simple answer.

5) Drops entire teams from the organization charts….. I purchased them, I painted them, now they cannot be used. That alone killed the game for many players from going over to Ver4.0 near me. Sorry…. a Pak battery will have a command structure with the platoon….. now it just has cannon and crew ?

Yep but those teams are still in the blisters atm .

Take the LW British 3" Mortar Plt , most of the V3 LW lists removed the PIATs options, now V4 has removed the Com and 3 Obs teams . So that's 15 figures out of 33 which can't be used in V4 , but still have to be paid for .

I once bought 120 Forest Goblins and 6 months later, the latest WFB version eliminated them entirely.
FoW is following a familiar pattern.

We went from 3rd to 4th and actually picked up more players.
The cards really help and our local store supports v4 and the sales it brings in.
Plus we play WWI through Team yankee so it helps not having to change rules.
But if you have all of v3 and tend to play with the same ols group then stick to what you like.

we also transitioned to V4. Not so much a big deal for us. FOW V4 is more a game than simulation IMHO but we use it more for fun than real wargame.

My group doesn't mind and I don't mind either because I do a lot of paper wargames.

Bolt Action though took most of our times. Nevertheless, we are attempting now the new Fate of a Nation.

I have been collecting the V4 books in the last month. I like the books and the simpler rules system. Is it the perfect WW2 miniatures game? No. There are not as many unit options now and they did change the unit compositions in many cases. I played the original version of FOW and haven't played V2 or V3. I am perhaps coming into V4 with a more open mind since I do not have any experience with V2 or V3.

Well i have heard back and forth on 4th edition. More bad than good but i haven't played myself.

Funny enough, i just put my entire FoW collection of previous editions FoW books on eBay, and it was a good amount of books. Sold all but the one book. So, there is that. Someone still wanted them for something.

Grimm

Thanks all for the feedback. Looks like I'll not be buying v4 seeing as I have v3

What does chrome mean? As in, 'this wargame has some chrome'?

Chrome = special rules for various weapons and situations.

Thanks coopman

I actually *really* like the cards. They make it a lot harder to forget a rule, which is a great improvement for occasional gamers.

But 4e lost a lot of the detail that v2 and v3 had in terms of organizations.

IMO, 3e books/organizations with 4e style cards would be much better. Also, I like the off-table artillery and counterbattery from the Pacific War books.

I will note that Team Yankee works pretty well, but combat changed between 1945 and 1985!

After playing for years I ended up completely stopping my FOW addiction when V4 came out. It has saved me vast amounts of money and allowed me to get into Bolt Action. I whole heartedly agree with every thing TMPWargamerabit wrote. It all but killed a thriving WWII gaming group at my local store.

that's funny what you say rhacelt, because the break of pace in FOW has also helped me to save money and go into BA.

The difference I am noticing is that I can put BA armies much faster on the table. I would never have thought that was possible with 28mm.

Although, I am happily going into Fate of a Nation right now, with a tight budgeting.

It all but killed a thriving WWII gaming group at my local store.

Why didn't they just keep playing the rules they liked?

Flames of War had a lot of converts from GW games, and they/we are heavily indoctrinated into "must play current edition". Not to mention "no houserules allowed".

Sadly.

Though there is also a desire to only have one set of rules to play for Team Yankee, Vietnam, Middle East, and WW2.

Pz Gen,
In many places like my local group we looked at the new rule 4.0 versions, the release schedule for new material reflecting the new rules, and decided that the going forward with Ver4.0 wasn't for our majority of the group and game enjoyment.

The trouble became soon all relevant as some of the group players decided to leave the group and only play Ver4.0. Most were of the young players, new to the hobby or FOW format. the older (game playing time wise) FOW members in general had years of FOW Ver1.0 to Ver3.0 experience and didn't wish to change their considerably larger miniature collections and learn another game. So the group split apart, played on different days/evenings at the LGS, and in the case of Ver3.0, playing games at the warren, Overall neither group was liking the end result….. manly being two smaller groups vs. a united larger player base. The LGS had to support the Ver4.0 as that is what they sold…. but FOW sales dropped 60% or more, because the older players stopped their purchasing stream…. and the younger Ver4.0 players in total couldn't cover the historical sales difference. Thus FOW slowly dropped away at the LGS from a sales point of view….. until both groups slowly built their cadre of players. Present day at the local LGS the Ver4.0 group is still smaller but active and us old timers with Ver3.0 run the historical campaigns and themed scenarios, large multi-table games with player teams or smaller one or two vs. same player scenarios…. while the Ver4.0 crowd is all into matched one on one play or tourney. But…. this worked out at my LGS and my gaming warren. In many areas the divided player pools never returned to the game,,,, the Ver3.0 went over to other game rules and the Ver4.0 players became so scarce that games became all too infrequent.

So…. In our case we kept playing the game and use the former rules Ver3.0…. really now Ver3.2x with house rules for material not covered by the MRB or supplements. I consider myself lucky in that both Ver3.0 and Ver4.0 have active local groups. I have a large 18x6 foot table FOW Ver3.0 Bulge scenario scheduled for the upcoming HMGS-PSW regional convention (Oct 13-14th at Cal State Fullerton) and at the same convention the local Ver4.0 player group have their tourney. Plus there are some great TY games scheduled.

Ah. Thanks for the explanation TW….

TMPWargamrabit you hit it on the head. Plus in our group there may have been a little more auguring over rules and witch version is better that may have caused some hurt feelings that helped bring both to an end. I find some of the old hands just use their collections to play small Tanks games and forget the rest. Most have moved on to other games completely.

V4 destroyed the game. A couple of years ago at NJCon they had 20 tables playing the FoW tournament. This year ZERO. Same thing I've heard at other cons. I can't even get people to drag their FoW minis out to play OTHER rules that's how deep seated the anger is. And make no mistake it is anger not just changing interests. Most have switched to ADLG and so FoW has gone a long way to killing WWII gaming in general. Good going guys! I can't wait for version 5! Cheers!

I can't wait for version 5 !

Unless sales start going down faster than the Hindenburg , i can't see them going back to the V3 style of lists .

So its either change , stick to V3 , or play something else , the way i see it .

Good news though i picked up Banzai and Gung Ho cheap off ebay , so i now have all the books for V3 .

Among the v.4 books I've got,Iron Cross,Afrika Korps,Armies Of Late War,Early/Late War rulebook,and I believe Barbarossa is still usable for EW,as I hope Atlantik Wall,Fortress Italy,etc. still are also for LW..

The most serious flaw in V4 is the morale system. Every platoon will fight to the last two infantry stands or last two tanks. Try this out with a soviet tank company of 10 tanks, or a soviet infantry company some time – it makes the game endless.

I like the new artillery rules – heavy artillery is no longer the tank killing machine of old and standard field artillery is now much more useful at killing infantry and gun teams. This is a good thing.

Assaults are far easier and have half the rules and exceptions. There are not half a dozen observer teams cluttering up the table anymore.

But why oh why did they keep all those crappy special rules that ruined V3? And as for those cards…we call them "cardies" and anyone who uses them is a cardie wearer.

The whole thing is 60% worthwhile.

Problem is, the new plastic models they are making are easily the best WWII tank toys I have seen in 30+ years.

I played 1-2, missed 3 entirely. My local shop started pushing FoW a month ago and its HUGE.

My old group (in another town) will not touch 4

I am surprised and a bit dismayed that so much is being left out that was there in 2nd/3rd. (No Italians at Stalingrad)

But I love the game and its the only historicals in town

Have people tried combining aspects of V3 and V4. Was thinking of using the detail, organisation and points with V3 and most of the new rules for V4. Some accommodation needs to be made for things like cost of Germans now with no stormtrooper move. Does it all immediately unravel or can you chuck in an extra 50 points here and there to keep people happy (and if you are avoiding the tourney scene)?

Never played V1-3 but got into V4 because of TY. Former BA player who switched to FOW because it allows me to use more tanks.

Former BA player who switched to FOW because it allows me to use more tanks.

Defo with V4 , in V3 if you took a full Sqn of British Shermans there wasn't many pts left for much else , in V4 you can almost get 2 Sqns for 100 pts in LW .

I never played v3 but as a new player jumping in, I feel like lists lack a lot of historical accuracies. now I'm not sure if that was also the case in v3 or if it's a drawback of trying to make the rules more streamlined for tournament play. It does leave a sour taste in my mouth when I see lists that aren't even remotely historically accurate.

Also, one thing that really really bugs me is that apparently they went from using the tank designations to referring to it by its arrangement. So like a Panzer IV D is Panzer IV (short 7.5cm). That just bothers me more than it should because I instinctively refer to them by their type, not the weapon.

I also really don't like them trying to act like GW. Models that don't have up to date models just get dropped from the rules, stuff like that which is straight out of the GW playbook but not suited for a historical game.

Models that don't have up to date models just get dropped from the rules, stuff like that which is straight out of the GW playbook but not suited for a historical game.

Yet they want FLGS to stock 3 or 4 boxes of the same vehicle, gun and infanty , just because they have different crew or cards !

Wayniac V3 was much more based on history and less on tournament play. That is why many of us who are historic gamers have dropped the game. I will not say that V3 was the most historic of the WWII games out there but it was so much better then what they have now.

I feel like lists lack a lot of historical accuracies.

FOW lists have always played loose with historical TO&E's, emphasizing flexibility over rigidness but keeping within reason. And who's to say they're "inaccurate"? Historically speaking, field commanders fiddle with their "army lists" all the time due to attrition and other factors (like mission objectives) based on what they can scratch together, creating ad hoc kampfgruppen (battlegroups) or reinforced platoons/companies with what's available on hand rather than what some textbook field manual written by desk jockeys says they should do.

That just bothers me more than it should because I instinctively refer to them by their type, not the weapon.

It does bother you more than it should. I'm a treadhead who knows the differences among all the lettered ausf's by heart too, but that just smacks of nitpicking to me.

I also really don't like them trying to act like GW. Models that don't have up to date models just get dropped from the rules, stuff like that which is straight out of the GW playbook but not suited for a historical game.

V4 only covered MW and a part (D-Day) of LW so far so it's not a matter of dropping models. They just haven't gotten to incorporating them into V4 just yet.

Yet they want FLGS to stock 3 or 4 boxes of the same vehicle, gun and infanty , just because they have different crew or cards!

Only about half of my models are BF, the other half being made up of PSC and Zvezda so I don't always "play by their rules." V4 also doesn't seem to emphasize infantry as much as tanks – part of the reason why I got into it – so it's not really a big hit on my wallet or anything.

V4 only covered MW and a part (D-Day) of LW so far so it's not a matter of dropping models. They just haven't gotten to incorporating them into V4 just yet.

No, I've actually seen it mentioned on the FoW FB group that they are adopting a policy of no (new) model = no rules. There are already books out that seem to be missing units that were in previous books. Of course, that's just what everyone has said so it may not be accurate. It seems to be a pretty common assumption from the majority of people I've talked to online though.

I've actually seen it mentioned on the FoW FB group that they are adopting a policy of no (new) model = no rules. There are already books out that seem to be missing units that were in previous books.

The German D-Day book is missing Jagdpanthers & King Tigers , BF isn't releasing kits for them untill they do the LW Eastern Front book. So people are now waiting on BF's history of WW2 to catch up so they can use the missing vehicles in their Normandy lists !

seems to be a pretty common assumption from the majority of people I've talked to online though.

So the claim is purely anecdotal. Just as I thought.

The German D-Day book is missing Jagdpanthers & King Tigers , BF isn't releasing kits for them untill they do the LW Eastern Front book. So people are now waiting on BF's history of WW2 to catch up so they can use the missing vehicles in their Normandy lists !

That's probably bc D-Day didn't see much in the way of King Tigers and Jagdpanthers. What, only a few Porsche-turret King Tigers "saw action" around D-Day? It makes perfect sense to hold them off for the later books, whether it's the LW Eastern Front book or a Battle of the Bulge supplement.

If you want to gripe, say that they left out the M4A3 Sherman in the D-Day American book. All they included are the cast-hull M4A1's carried over from MW with one point less frontal armor than the welded-hull M4A3's. BF is probably holding it for the BotB book.

If you want to gripe, say that they left out the M4A3 Sherman in the D-Day American book.

There wasn't any M4A3's in Overlord (V3 Normandy lists) , so maybe they didn't see service in NWE till later in 1944 ?