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"Outfits of the Order of St. Lazarus?" Topic


11 Posts

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09 Sep 2018 5:12 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP06 Sep 2018 2:41 a.m. PST

Personally I think it is a big mistake to represent their knights in white with a green cross because of the rules of the Knights Templar and Hospitallers, who claimed that a knight who had leprosy had to leave the Order and join the brothers of St Lazare, who had a black coat without insignia …

What were the colors of the coats of the knights and sergeants of this order, or how did their outfits
evolve?

As for the sergeants of the religious orders, I have quite well (see my other topics on other military religious orders on the TMP) studied the question.

We would need sources of time or at least old, because I concluded that the illustrators and therefore the sculptors of the figurines always show them with a knight hauberk and often with an iron kettle – helmet, (iron hat gold iron hat, first appeared in the late -12 th century) to give them a look more "light" that the knights of the religious orders, second heavy uniformological error, in fact the sergeants of the religious orders wore lighter hauberk that the knights of the religious orders, the hauberk of the sergeants of the religious orders are short-sleeved and stopping above knees …

As everyone knows, the sergeants of the religious orders were less heavily equipped than their knights (hence "levis armaturae"), carrying hauberks lighter but carrying the same armament of spear and sword as the knights of the religious orders …

If anyone can help …

Personal logo Stosstruppen Supporting Member of TMP06 Sep 2018 4:57 a.m. PST

Look at this stuff.

link

link

link

That should give you dates to determine armaments

athun2506 Sep 2018 5:25 a.m. PST

When I painted the Knights of St. Lazarus in 15mm I followed the black with no cross scheme as that is what was prevalent at the time. In 28mm, I did them white with the green cross for looks as much as any proof. Personally, I wonder if when sent to the order, the knight just kept his surcoat, etc, and removed his order's cross, possibly changing it to green. This might account for the color confusion of white (Templar, Teutonic)or black(Hospitaller) surcoats. Just a thought.

skipper John06 Sep 2018 10:19 a.m. PST

Who doesn't love this? Though those Knights of Jerusalem fellows have outstanding outfits too.

link

Let me think…. this or black, hmmmmmmmm.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2018 3:10 a.m. PST

There seems to be some confusion about when the green cross was adopted by the Order of St Lazarus, some internet articles confidently state that it was not adopted until the 16th Century. However Savona-Ventura and Michael W Ross clearly allude to the fact that The Knights of St Lazarus at least were using the green cross on habit mantle and harness from 1314 at the latest – prescribed by Siegried of Flatte, Commander of Seedorf in that year.* Master Generals of the order were probably wearing some form of cross on their cloaks a little earlier at least – Thomas de Sainville (1277-1312) is depicted on his tomb originally at Boigny with a couped cross on his cloak at the left shoulder.

*The Heraldry and Development of the Order of Saint Lazarus of Jerusalem, The Journal of the Heraldry Society of Scotland No.36 Summer 2013.

But for the 12th century at least, which is the period of interest to me, the rules of both templars and hospitallers stated that a knight who taught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore a black habit without insignia and it must have been the same for their sergeants.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2018 3:41 a.m. PST

In my opinion the knights and the sergeants of St Lazarus carried a simple surcoat (but rather sleeveless, not the "cappa clausa" of the Knights and sergeants Hospitallers…) like those of the Knights Templar, but black and without cross or badges of any kind.

And as everyone knows, sergeants are not as heavily equipped as knights, including in the military orders of the Knights of Christ.

To finish and to confirm what I think about this topic, I contacted the Chancellor of the Grand Priory of France, in the person of Chevalier Daniel Blanchet Magon de la Lande.

I hope he has the answer, or that he will put me in touch with an enthusiast or a specialist of his order for these kinds of questions.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP09 Sep 2018 6:49 a.m. PST

While waiting for this miraculous answer, we should be interested in the number of combatants of this order, what battles with how many knights, sergeants and turcopoles?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP15 Sep 2018 9:07 a.m. PST

See page 75, Ian Heath in his "Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291, Wargames Research Group" edition of 1978, it is interesting.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP16 Sep 2018 7:36 a.m. PST

Good person has info for this subject?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP21 Oct 2018 6:21 a.m. PST

it would seem that as the Order of St Lazarus is a Cistercian Order, their knight-brothers would have a white "habit" (the "cappa" and after a surcoat as the templar?) And their sergeant-brothers a black "habit"(the "cappa" and after also a surcoat as the templar?) all without cross?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP01 Jan 2022 2:50 a.m. PST

Aie ya yaie! This is what it is to look for …

It was not until 1314 that Siegfried de Flatte, Commander of Séedorf, wrote a rule requiring the Knights of Saint Lazarus to wear "on the front of their coat a square green cross as well as on the left side of their mantle and on the parts of their war harness ".

So is it possible that they weren't wearing any crosses before?

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