"AWI Jaegers in melee" Topic

Did they engage in hand to hand combat often?
How did they do?
Was there hunting sword a decent weapon?

I'm trying to put together a hierarchy of melee skills and am wondering if I am over thinking this.

Do you have Johann Ewald's memoir? If you do you could find something in there on the subject.

If you don't have it, I would highly recommend that you get hold of a copy.

link

That's a pretty expensive proposed solution to his question.

wondering if I am over thinking this

This.

Go with your gut feel.

You're probably right. My gut says Ewald's Jaegers were bad ass and could handle themselves.
They'll count as bayonet.

Ewald is available on line here

link

In the rules system I use (BG) skirmishers can only engage other skirmishers in melee, or units running (IIRC). To your question, no not really.

OMG 42flanker, thank you so much! I have been lookingf ro a way to get a hold of this for < $100 USD every since I read The Road to Guilford Courthouse.

Why would a commander want to risk his jaegers in a melee? Even if in theory they could fight better in a melee they are going to be much harder to replace that rifle armed American militia.

They didn't have sword bayonets?

No. They carried a short hunting sword.

Well I learned something new. I have been giving Jaegers a bonus for having bayonets.

I do not recall any mention of Hunting Sword uses in his Diary of the American War, nor do I find mention of its use in his Treatise on Partisan Warfare.

The Hessian jagers were supposed to be issued with one. See the Knotel plate opposite page 64 in Military Uniforms in America: The Era of the American Revolution 1755-1795.

Apparently there was a smaller scabbard attached to the outside of the hunting sword scabbard which carried a hunting knife.

There were also mounted jagers who were issued a light cavalry saber but they usually fought on foot.

Mounted jagers wore boots, but the foot jagers replaced theirs with gaiters of cloth or leather.

The jager units from Brunswick and Anpach-Bayreuth were similar in appearance and equipment to the Hessian jagers.

As the jagers' mission usually was that of skirmishers, scouts, and snipers. I doubt that they would have engaged in a melee unless forced to do so by the situation. They worked efficiently with line troops and that technique was learned the hard way by American riflemen.

Ewald himself was considered to be one of the best outpost officers in the British service. He later became a Danish general.

'During these two years the Americans have trained a great many excellent officers who very often shame and excel our experienced officers, who consider it sinful to read a book or think of learning anything during the war…I must admit that when we examined a haversack of the enemy, which contained only two shirts, we also found the most excellent military books translated into their language. For example, Turpin, Jenny, Grandmaison, La Croix, Tielke's Field Engineer, and the Instruction of the great Frederick to his generals I have found more than one hundred times.'-Johann Ewald, December 1777, page 108.

Turpin de Crisse wrote several books on war which were respected and had served as a French hussar officer in the Seven Years' War. The French officer Grandmaison wrote A Treatise on the Military Service of Light Horse and Light Infantry which was considered the outstanding work on the subject.

There's a description in McGuire's book (Vol 2, I think) of Jaegers attacking with their short swords during a rain storm--but it wasn't exactly typical. What HG said covers it for most games we play--they are shooters, not stabbers.

I think some here are confusing the Jaeger rifles (no bayonet) with the Ferguson rifle (bayonet).

British rifles (you hardly see those in wargames, but they had them), did not mount a bayonet.

My "feeling" is that they had no bayonet, so didn't go looking for trouble.
Having said that, being bad ass* troops, they could handle most riffraff without any trouble.
Being based on TSATF, troops without bayonets will have penalties to close, but will not suffer penalties.
I'm sure that the sight of fierce green coated dudes with moustsches and a bad reputation charging with swords and screaming in German would be …. a cause of concern to a raggedy militia man. Especially before Valley Forge.
No. I don't want them charging all over the place. I just want them to be able to handle themselves in a tight spot.

*Ahem. "Elite"

I would agree that they are rated elite – as the British couldn't seem to get enough of them. The lack of a bayonet was not a problem as they were usually "backed up" by bayonets – Highlanders, German grens, etc. Look at their employment at Birmingham Hill – surrounded by Lights and Grenadiers.

I'm going on memory here, but doesn't Ewald recount an incident during his service in Virginia where his company was ordered to make an amphibious landing ahead of all other units, and he stated that had an enemy with bayonets met them at the beach, they would have been destroyed? He considered the ordered landing basically suicide, so it doesn't sound like they were confident about hand to hand combat.

While serving in New York I think mentions how hunting swords were good against other light troops and fleeing enemies.

Their job seems to have been shooting accurately at a distance from cover, not crossing swords (or bayonets).

Let's not forget that the jaegers in the beginning of the war were actual jaegers, later they were more often jaegers in name only and not in quality.

During the Battle of Cooch's Bridge in 1777, the vanguard of German jaegers under Lieutenant Colonel Ludwig Johann Adolph von Wurmb encountered Maxwell's Light Corps and wrote:
"I had the corps form on the right and attack. The captain on the right wing found an opportunity to fall upon the enemy's flank. After the enemy had shot themselves out of ammunition the fight was carried on with the sword, they being finally put to flight. But they immediately made a stand again and we drove them away the second time when they took post beyond Christeen Creek at Cooch's Bridge. Here the second battalion of light infantry came to our assistance."

The captain he refers to, I think is von Ewald who was in the thick of this fight. You'll notice that he describes the use of "the sword". in this engagement, so yes, the jeagers did use them on occasion.

'Shooters not stabbers'

It looks like the jagers were responsible for a fair few of the American casualties at Harlem Heights. Headshots causing injuries that burial parties concluded were the result of Hessians stealing out in the night to dispatch American wounded with rifle butts.

Hello Winston Smith!

"I'm trying to put together a hierarchy of melee skills and am wondering if I am over thinking this."

I think so. Historically I've never seen or heard of any such thing. So unless you have some evidence to the contrary it seems your simply creating a fabrication to fit into your rule system.

I do realize that if you are playing fantasy gaming or some kind of artificial one on one action that melee skills could come into play, as do a host of other skills/charts, etc.

I'm under the impression that historically melee's or hand to hand combat was not as common as we might think. I believe that once one side felt the other was disorganized, suppressed, floundering, shaken or broken, etc. they pushed forward, charged, etc. If correct the other side often gave ground, broke, fell back, etc. If the attacker was wrong the defender was generally able to repel or stop the attack with fire power, counter attack, etc. So in general what weapon each side had to use in actual hand to hand combat was I think not as important, or can be put into a realistic "hierarchy of melee skills" chart.

So unless I'm missing something I would suggest that you are indeed "over thinking this".

Hope this helps you out in some way.

Best regards,

Glenn

Let's not forget that the jaegers in the beginning of the war were actual jaegers, later they were more often jaegers in name only and not in quality.

Possibly. Getting replacements was undoubtedly difficult, but the hard core of the jagers was still there and their training and experience would have been imparted to any replacements no matter where they were procured.

"I'm going on memory here, but doesn't Ewald recount an incident during his service in Virginia where his company was ordered to make an amphibious landing ahead of all other units, and he stated that had an enemy with bayonets met them at the beach, they would have been destroyed? He considered the ordered landing basically suicide, so it doesn't sound like they were confident about hand to hand combat."

Yes, he was commenting (negatively) on Arnold's tactical abilities.

It has been a while since I read Ewald, but I believe he stated at one point about pairing a jäger with a grenadier in order to protect the jäger with his bayonet.

Some observations –

1) The idea that subsequent replacements were not "proper jaeger" may refer, I suspect, to either the Hesse Hanau jaeger battalion of Lt Col Karl von Creutzbourg, which served in Canada (a single company served with St Leger at Fort Stanwix and Oriskany, with the other three companies only turning up after that campaign), or to the Hesse Hanau "Frei Korps" battalion, commanded by Lt Col Michael von Janeke, which only arrived in 1781 and saw no action. Almost 400 Hesse Hanau reinforcements arrived in two batches in 1781 (50) and 1782 (334) and my guess is that it was these men who attracted the adverse criticism. Certainly von Creutzbourg's men acquitted themselves well both in St Leger's campaign and the post-1777 raids along the frontier. Somehow, I can't imagine Wurmb or Ewald accepting inferior material, or at the very least not licking it into shape if it did land in their laps.

2) Both the Hesse Cassel and Brunswick jager were typically supported by platoons of grenadiers, in the NYC and Saratoga campaigns, respectively; the purpose of these troops was to provide musket-and-bayonet support (the Hesse Hanau jaeger tended to operate alongside British/Provincial light troops). The Light Battalion von Barner (which had 1 jaeger and 4 musketeer companies) was supposed to have been formed for this purpose, but was not used in that way; I have been unable to find out why, but suspect that either sickness when it arrived in Canada, or else poor quality recruits (it was formed from men drafted from units that remained in Brunswick) meant that it was unsuitable.

3) All British light companies had a handful of men issued with rifles, usually the 1776 Tower model (note – not the Ferguson, which was kept exclusively to his own unit, and appears to have been put into storage after the unit was disbanded). In Howe's main army, when the British light battalions were formed, all of the rifle-armed men in each battalion were converged into a single unit under a subaltern, and marched at the head of the column supported by whichever was the duty company that day. I don't have my de Witt Bailey books to hand (and am happy to be corrected), but I think that they did have a sword-bayonet, not unlike the one fitted to the Baker rifle of the Napoleonic era. About 1/3 of the Company of Select Marksmen formed in Burgoyne's army are thought to have been armed with rifles taken from Morgan's men who had been captured during the failed attack on Quebec.

"(3)" above!
This could be an interesting thread topic of it's own?