| C M DODSON | 12 Aug 2018 1:14 a.m. PST |
I am trying to ascertain what was the nature of the British cavalry that provided Wellingtons escort on his trip to meet Feldmarschall Blucher at Brye. Uffindell quotes ' hussars' whilst Silborne et al state ' some cavalry'. Anything a bit more concrete would be welcome as I am now preparing 2.40 PM and the Duke will be a little discomforted to find his return journey a little perilous as the French cavalry have taken possession of Thyle and the Namur road. Thank you in anticipation. Chris |
| Artilleryman | 12 Aug 2018 5:54 a.m. PST |
Mike Robinson in 'The Battle of Quatre Bras 1815' says they were light dragoons but does not give the regiment. There would certainly have been some Cavalry Staff Corps with him I their red light dragoon uniforms who would make an interesting element. Unless someone else comes up with the information, I would choose a regiment that was in the campaign and use them. Alternatively make them all Staff Corps. Either way, everyone agrees it was a modest escort. |
 deadhead  | 12 Aug 2018 6:20 a.m. PST |
Tragically, because the uniform is so terrific, the Mounted Staff Corps were not reformed until the reoccupation of Paris. I simply love their rig but not for THE Campaign of the Napoleonic Wars alas. But I must admit I would be really tempted! Light Dragoons with the fringes removed from the epaulettes and that is it! The snag with "Light dragoons" is that Hussar regts were usually entitled thus in contemporary accounts. |
| Artilleryman | 12 Aug 2018 6:44 a.m. PST |
D..n it Deadhead, right again. I forgot that the Cavalry Staff Corps were late for Waterloo. The business with the hussars or light dragoons as a reference does give some more flexibility I suppose. Choose a hussar regiment, put them as wearing pelisses and they could be a number of regiments. |
| deadhead | 12 Aug 2018 7:32 a.m. PST |
I would still be tempted frankly. I have often wanted to make a few, having made one from Airfix US cavalry many decades ago! Some how Hussars seem right. Certainly, by 18th, all liaison with the advancing Prussians seems to have been with hussars, if only because that flank was where they were! |
| Prince of Essling | 12 Aug 2018 7:46 a.m. PST |
Hofschroer quotes Dornberg "A patrol of Prussian hussars arrived, informing the Duke that Marshal Blucher was at Sombreffe. He said to me he wanted to ride there and I should accompany him. Along with several of the Duke's adjutants, General von Muffling rode with us." ……The Duke was accompanied by Muffling, Dornberg, Fitzroy Somerset and others, escorted by a detachment of hussars. Could the hussars have been the Prussian patrol as the only allied cavalry at Quatre Bras at that time was a squadron of Belgian light dragoons? |
| robert piepenbrink | 12 Aug 2018 8:09 a.m. PST |
This suggests, but certainly does not prove an escort by the 10th or the 18th Hussars--unless the Prince of Essling is right. He may well be. tenthatwaterloo.com/quatrebras
All of which said, unless I had firm evidence to the contrary, I'd do the 7th. I'm partial to the Lilywhite 7th. Have been ever since reading Heyer's Regency Buck.
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| C M DODSON | 12 Aug 2018 8:11 a.m. PST |
Thank you to everyone for their prompt informed advice. Van Merlen's cavalry brigade arrived between 3-3.30 pm. Robinson does indeed mention Dragoons on page 164. An element of The 1st Schlesisches Prussian hussar regiment was also present and requested permission to rejoin their colleagues at Ligny on the morning of the 16th. Possibly this is where the hussar reference came from? Silbourne and Witt are normally precise but unfortunately not on this occasion. I intend to do a distance picture illustrating the Dukes dilemma so I feel a small party of generic British hussars, as suggested might fit the bill. This particular battle as stated before does seem to throw up some unusual queries and further investigations inevitably prove contradictory. Thank you again. Chris |
| deadhead | 12 Aug 2018 11:28 a.m. PST |
You do pose a fascinating and well researched question.
Like most folk I tend to assume that anything before Sunday 18th June 1815 simply did not even happen…….I thought obvious some British/KGL Light Dragoons as an escort.
Without thinking they were not even there on 16th June at that time.
I really must learn that the Napoleonic Wars did not start at 1130, or whatever, on that Sunday morning. I do now accept Charleroi, QB and the skirmish at Ligny within that definition. |
| Artilleryman | 12 Aug 2018 11:42 a.m. PST |
It is quite possible that the Duke's escort would probably have been selected earlier and set out with him from Brussels on the 16th. Therefore, it could have been from a unit that was not at the Battle of Quatre Bras as a whole. |
| Oliver Schmidt | 12 Aug 2018 12:04 p.m. PST |
The Prussian detachment of the 1. Schlesisches Husaren-Regiment, under Seconde-Lieutenant v. Sellin, had arrived at Quatre Bras on 15th late at midnight, attached itself to general Perponcher, and left him on 17th June in the morning. (Franklin, Waterloo, pp. 10, 24, 44, 61, 89 f.; Siborne p. 59) Sellin's short report doesn't mention any accompanying the Duke during this time. I doubt he would have returned to Quatre Bras had he had the chance to rejoin his regiment on the morning of 16th. |
| Oliver Schmidt | 12 Aug 2018 12:28 p.m. PST |
Müffling writes he and the Duke left Bruxelles at 5 a.m., arrived at Quatre Bras at 11 a.m., and decided there to ride on to Ligny in order to meet Blücher: link So, if they were accompanied by an escort, it is probable this was put together at Bruxelles, as Artilleryman has hinted to in his message above. And there was no reason to change this escort at Quatre Bras. |
| Prince of Essling | 12 Aug 2018 1:50 p.m. PST |
The reference to Belgian light dragoons is in wellington's conversation with John Wilson Croker – see page 175 at link |
| Lord Hill | 12 Aug 2018 2:23 p.m. PST |
I think there is some confusion (at least on my part!) between the Royal Staff Corps (present at Waterloo) and the Cavalry Staff Corps (formed during the occupation). On my database of Waterloo men I have 9 officers and 2 Privates listed as receiving a medal for their roll at Waterloo in the Royal Staff Corps. The two Privates are William Granger (from Codnor, Derbyshire) and William Hillier (from Shaftesbury, Dorset). On 25th March 1816 a number of picked men from various cavalry regiments formed a new "Cavalry Staff Corps". In addition to Privates from 12th Light and 13th Dragoons there were also two serjeants from the 18th Hussars – Serjeants John Bacon and John Taylor. Maybe these two were the men chosen to accompany Wellington on the 16th. Who knows? |
| C M DODSON | 12 Aug 2018 11:57 p.m. PST |
Thank you again to everyone for their kind input. Von Sellin and his men departed on the morning of the 16th prior to the main event in order to rejoin their colleagues at Ligny. The mention of Belgian Dragoons may refer to an escort for the Hereditary Prince. Certainly the lack of cavalry until Merlen and the Brunswick Corps turned up was a major disadvantage for the Allies. The main Allied cavalry mass did not arrive until the action had essentially ceased. Whilst it may be the case that Wellington was unescorted, I personally think that prudence would suggest a cavalry escort to the Allied-commander. The strategic situation was ' in the air', constantly evolving and to go wandering around Belgium essentially unprotected would have been very unwise. Indeed the good General did have a near miss upon his return and my scenario has him taking a forced detour too. Thank you again, marvellous input as always. Best wishes, Chris |
| Oliver Schmidt | 13 Aug 2018 3:38 a.m. PST |
Concerning Seconde-Lieutenant v. Sellin: According to his own report he took part in the combat at Quatre Bras on 16th, losing 1 hussar and 12 dead or wounded horses. On the morning of 17th, he asked general Perponcher to attest his services, and then left with his detachment. |
ScottWashburn  | 13 Aug 2018 4:09 a.m. PST |
CM Dodson, you are dealing with a fascinating scenario and one which I've thought about from time to time. Once the Waterloo Campaign got started, pretty much everything went wrong for Napoleon. But imagine if everything had gone right? D'Erlon taking the right road and moving aggressively and falling on the Prussian flank. Blucher being killed or captured in his last-ditch charge. Throw in Wellington being bagged on his way back from his meeting with Blucher and the whole campaign is won before it has barely started. |
| 42flanker | 13 Aug 2018 4:18 a.m. PST |
All of which said, unless I had firm evidence to the contrary, I'd do the 7th. I'm partial to the Lilywhite 7th. Have been ever since reading Heyer's Regency Buck. A small point and this may have had no bearing on tactical decisions such as choice of escort but the Earl of Uxbridge was Colonel of the 7th Hussars, and Wellington was deeply hacked off with the Earl for eloping with his sister- in-law. It might, therefore, be questionable whether he would honour the Earl by choosing an escort from his regiment. |
| C M DODSON | 13 Aug 2018 5:22 a.m. PST |
Hi Oliver. Thank you for your input re the Prussian hussars. These troops were indeed involved in the initial skirmishing on the 16th having been detached from their regiment in the withdrawal of the 15th. However, Silborne, Franklin, Field etc all state that they withdrew before the real combat started on the afternoon of the 16th. I do not know why there should be such a discrepancy but it seems that this vital but usually overlooked battle is full of them. Best wishes, Chris |
| Oliver Schmidt | 13 Aug 2018 6:30 a.m. PST |
Hi Chris, the origial report by Sellin burned when the German army archive in Potsdam was bombed in 1945. A handwritten copy survived in the papers of Pflugk-Harttung, now in the Geheimes Staats-Archiv PK in Berlin (signature should be: VI. HA. von Pflugk-Harttung VII, 3b, p. 25). John Franklin was so kind to provide me with a photocopy. It says: Es war am 15. Juni als ich mit 50 Pferden des Regts. die Vorposten bei Mont St. Genevieve hatte. Der Feind drang über Thuin vor, und ging in gerader Linie gegen Charleroi vor, als ich meine Vorposten eingezogen, marschirte ich ab, konnte aber erst in dem Augenblick bei Gosselies, wohin ich den Befehl hatte, mich zurückzuziehen, vermöge des Bogens den ich machen musste ankommen, als das Gefecht dort schon engagirt war, wodurch ich nun von dem Corps gänzlich getrennt wurde, mir blieb nichts übrig, als mich gegen Nivelles zurückzuziehen, wo ich auch in der Nacht um 12 Uhr in der Gegend von Quatre Bras ankam. Hier war der General Perponcher, welcher eine Brigade Holländischer & Nassauischer Truppen kommandirte.Den 16. morgens wurde dieser General vom Feinde mit überlegener Macht angegriffen; da er durchaus nicht einen Mann Cavallerie bei sich hatte, so gab er mir den Befehl bei ihm zu bleiben, welchen ich auch, da sich das Gefecht schon heftig engagirt hatte, und ich glaubte hier nützlich sein zu können, gehorsamte. Ich ging sogleich vor und hieb mit meinem Detachement zu verschiedenen malen auf feindliche Cavallerie mit Erfolg ein, und wohnte überhaupt hernach der Schlacht bei Quatre Bras bey, welches alles ich mir am 17. morgens von dem Herrn General Perponcher attestiren liess. Im Laufe des Gefechts verlor ich von meinem Detachement 1 Husaren & 12 blessirte und todte Pferde. v. Sellin
Leutnant im 1 Schles. Husar. Regiment. This copy of the original report states definitely "which all I had myself attested by general Perponcher on 17th in the morning". He writes that several times he successfully attacked enemy cavalry in the morning of 16th, and "actually attended afterwards the battle of Quatre Bras". Maybe the clue to the discrepancy is that Sellin didn't take an active part after the real combat had started in the afternoon. |
| deadhead | 13 Aug 2018 7:29 a.m. PST |
Lord Hill you are absolutely right. There was a staff corps in a very dull red uniform for the ORs. But you were of course talking about cavalry, so I specifically referred to the "Mounted" version, in what is basically the reversed Light Dragoon rig, that looked so good.
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| deadhead | 13 Aug 2018 7:32 a.m. PST |
Lord Hill you are absolutely right. There was a staff corps in a very dull red uniform. But you were of course talking about cavalry, so I referred to the "Mounted" version in what is basically the reversed Light Dragoon rig, that looked so good. |
| C M DODSON | 13 Aug 2018 7:33 a.m. PST |
Hi Oliver. Fantastic stuff indeed. This seems pretty definative to me. The Duke was, like his Majesty, not adverse to 'bending' events to further their publicity, especially with the passage of time. This fellow is talking about the next day! Thank you again. Best wishes, Chris |
paints the Dogman from the Flintloque starter set.
