"Why do Post Apoc survivor minis use hand held weapons?" Topic

If there was an atomic war that killed most of the people in the USA, why would they have to resort to weapons like baseball bats when there would be plenty of firearms to go around, and plenty of ammo as well? Makes no sense to me, yet many post apoc survivor minis are produced with hand held weapons. Your thoughts?

Why would there be plentiful ammunition? Assuming a spastic nuclear response, every military base and industrial target, and even every city, is getting smacked by an atomic bomb. The majority of the world's ammunition and firearms would be destroyed or radioactive… And what wasn't blown up would probably be expended in considerable quantities.

Well, if it's an actual atomic war, the vast majority of those weapons and ammo are going to be (or have been) located in major population centers, which would be the targets of the nukes. Therefore the weapons and ammo will either be directly destroyed by the thermal effects of the blast, or be in highly radioactive zones. Rural weapons can be had, but the ammunition supplies will be considerably limited.

And even if not targeted, outlying suburban or semi-urban regions may have limited supplies of guns and ammunition to begin with, and much of the ammunition will probably wind up being used very quickly once massive looting begins and the peaceful suburban world turns savage.

Last, you might consider that civilian firearms, while plentiful in the US, may be much more limited in supply in socialistic states, as Europe, Asia, etc.. So setting is going to be a part of that equation, too.

All of the above are logical reasons why firearms might be in short supply. But the real reason is that whoever created the story setting you're playing, or sculpted the minis, thought it would be more "savage" and "apocalyptic" to have the figures wield make-shift melee weapons. (Like that utterly stupid barbed-wire bat in THE WALKING DEAD. Dramatic, yeah, but ridiculous.)

EDIT: Balthazar and I think alike…

The ammo supply is finite. Same with spare parts and trained gunsmiths.

The same reason they stand there surrounded by enough rayon and polyester for a population 100 times the number of survivors and are dressed in rags. Did whatever wiped out 99 percent of the population nail 100% of the Walmarts?

In my experience, country people love guns and the ammo that goes with it.

because its hard to shoot a gun with your feet?

I have seen many post-apoc figures armed with shooting weapons. I have assumed those with melee weapons were just to represent those in close action combat. While military firearms might not be readily available, there are many Walmarts, as Robert notes, besides Cabalas, Bass Pro Shops, and local gun stores. Lots of firearms and ammo. In the US at least. Also police stations, which would be around in other countries too.

I guess if we are talking about 100 years after the apocalypse, there would be a decline in available firearms.

Some very interesting reading, and a fair question. I agree with what has been said already, but will add another thought similar to what Parzival said – because it makes for a better story line. Give everybody a bunch of modern automatic weapons you might as well play Weird War (which I also do and enjoy).

I take Mad Max and Book of Eli for the basis for how I structure my armies. No real sense of time necessarily in my approach, just survivors scavenging what they can.

Terry

Two of any number of possibilities, directly after the Event before people have time to gather weapons and ammo, and long after the Event when ammo is scarce they might need hand weapons.
Also maybe groups form and hoard the guns and ammo leaving many to fend for themselves with hand weapons

Because many people think Mad Max/Road Warrior when you mention post-apoc gaming. So there are few if any guns, but plenty of Mohawk hairdos and football pad armor.

Just as it should be.

Even total atomic annihilation is no excuse to be unfashionable in the Wasteland.

We have 3 AK74 pattern rifles in our home.And plenty of ammo.

No need of baseball bats, here.

"The same reason they stand there surrounded by enough rayon and polyester for a population 100 times the number of survivors and are dressed in rags. Did whatever wiped out 99 percent of the population nail 100% of the Walmarts?"

Yes, because Get Smart's 'nude bomb' took care of the major clothing retailers… ;-) (and whatever is left always happens to be 3 sizes too small… ;-)

"why would they have to resort to weapons like baseball bats when there would be plenty of firearms to go around"

Guns are a bit noisy when you need to quietly smack someone without attracting instant unwanted (and lethal) attention…

I wonder if an explanation would be that many guns and ammo would be locked away in houses within subdivisions populated by zombies, or else picked over, and our heroic protagonists cannot risk searching house to house to find those weapons. PLUS, wouldn't gunsafes be impenetrable to a bunch of ragtag survivors? People with larger collections of weapons are going to have them locked up, and survivors would not have the skill or equipment to break open the caches.

90 out of 139 figures in my post Apocalyptic 20mm line have guns and 33 heavier guns like MGs. play the game as you like.

Umm . . . Most cities after even a non-nuclear post apocalypse would be full of useful gear like clothes, ammunition, etc. They woudl also be full of corpses.

Unburied corpses.

Ripe for the breeding of many, many, many diseases. the British TV series of the late 70s "Surviviors" made that point pretty clear, and thus the characters were extremely careful to avoid large population centres ( The mutant 'flu was bad enough they thought, no sense adding typhoid and plague to it ).

Adm,ittedly, though, firearms are still parctical, however as has been said the supply of ammunition and particularly modern gunpowder would be very limted; In a generation or two, assuming someone managed to make a Powder Mill for a community, they's be back to basic paper cartridges and Sharpes-like rifles at best I would say.

Go to the akfiles or fnfiles – there are survivalist types there dozens of firearms and with tens of thousands of rounds of the appropriate calibers stashed away.

Just because it was on sale frequently some years ago I know a fell who was buying bricks of .22lr almost weekly – 10 bricks is 5000 rounds.

Far more firearms in rural areas than in the cities.

And there are gunsmiths as well. Although with a few spare firing pins or other wear parts a gunsmith isn't required to keep firearms going for decades.

A fellow on the FNfiles had a rifle that he didn't even clean for 0ver 15,000 rounds. It had a broken piston spring for over 5000 of those rounds. Finally got a bad brass and it failed to extract during a competition. Possibly fatal in a firefight, but readily cleared when he had a few minutes.

Now hand to hand weapons definitely have a place, but firearms would be the first choice – close combat weapons take a lot longer to get proficient in the use of and require better physical condition to use for any length of time in an action.

Many close combat weapons make practical tools and vice versa – axes, hammers, poles, knives, spades, picks, entrenching tools, machetes etc. Swords maybe less so.

In a survivalist setting, you will probably find frequent use for a lot of those: building shelter or defenses, chopping firewood, skinning game etc. so there is a good chance that you will have something like that close by when something surprising happens – regardless of whether or not you are also packing a firearm.

Hand held weapons don't run out of bullets…playing post apoc games like fallout, I always have at least one close combat weapon (usually a knife) and a back up pistol since if you scavenging ammo its always good to have something reliable to fall back on, otherwise you have to lug an arsenal around with you to make sure you have the right ammo.

The Metro games (set in Post Apoc Russia) have pre war ammo being used as currency, so in a dangerous encounter you have to make the choice, use your wealth, use your locally produced ammo (which isn't as good) or go with your close combat weapon.

Also in the zombie genre Post Apoc games, a firearm is the equivalent of running around shouting "free meat!" while running naked down city streets. So for that part of the Post Apoc miniature market, close combat weapons make the most sense. Firearms are usually a last resort weapon.

Even in a non-zombie post apoc enviroment, using a firearm is likely to tell anything hostile to you, that a human is in the area, first choice should always be a silent kill. Crossbow or bow perhaps would be a more useful ranged weapon unless your fighting opponents which make firearms necessary.

Ditto what Parzival said.

Also, yes you might have lots of ammo at your base, but how much are you going to lug around when out on a scavenging mission ?

How much noise are you going to make, attracting zombies/rival scavengers to your location ?

What do you do if your gun breaks down in the field ? Are you also going to lug spare parts around ?

How many guns can you lug around in the field in case one or more jam or break down ?

Having a melee weapon reduces noise, doesn't require maintenance or supplies in the field (unless you get really unlucky).

As for clothes, there might be a lot of them, but give it a year or so, the shops will be partially looted in all the medium sizes, the rodents and birds will have got in along with the wind and rain (looters aren't exactly going to be tidy and always shut the door/smashed window).

And this all assumes you actually want to go in to the large towns and cities where the dead bodies are , or the undead, or the gangs of looters….

There would be enough guns and ammo lying around to last pretty much forever. They just might not be in places where a specific group of survivors can find easily them.

Does ammo go bad? No use having 10,000 rounds if it has a shelf life

I agree. If there is a nuclear war, save one round, for yourself.

Hey survivors, let's all go to the Walmart and see if we can survive the great battle to take away and horde all the ammunition. So many gangs have died there this week, I'm sure we can win now!

Because that's how it was in the original Mad Max.

On whether guns and ammo would be plentiful, I'd guess that would depend on the background.

In Metro, the 'safe' area is entirely limited to the metro under Moscow, so ammo and weapons wise your limited to what was actually there before the war, the surface is an irradiated wasteland populated by mutant creatures and only very limited numbers of scavengers known as Rangers have ever been to the surface. In any case there is very little to salvage in Moscow and large parts of the metro are abandoned or overrun by mutant creatures.

In a background set in the US, I'd guess the cities are gone, boneyards or just collapsed hellholes in the aftermath, military bases would also mostly like be nuked and anything near a missile silo is probably gone also…..survivors are probably going to be knocking around rural areas. So how many guns are available in your average (not near to anything important) town and how much ammo is available. Oh, and how long after the bombs are we talking.

Back in the early 80s a friend had feared that New Jersey was going to fall into the ocean as a counter balance to California falling into the Pacific. He believed that this would be the end of civilization and with his wife and some in-laws moved to Montana. They were "survivalist" and had a lot of weapons and ammunition. The thing that got me is that he really did not like his brother-in- law, so I always Imagine, that a year or two after the apocalypse someone would stumble over their holdout and find their bodies and a lot of weapons and gear.

I totally get it for those who want to play a fantasy game with punk rocker guys and gals in Mohawks, but I was thinking about the strategic angle of a possible situation, so that's why i asked the question. Here's my take on your opinions:

Those who believe that a person needs a lot of "training" to operate a rifle or shotgun are incorrect. I can teach anyone with decent eyesight, and that's sufficiently motivated, to fire a rifle effectively enough to hit a man at 50 yards in just a few hours. I saw *many* servicemen learn to operate rifles in a very short period of time, and with a little more training, and some talent, those same riflemen were able to hit man sized targets out to 100 yards and further. Pistols are back up weapons. You don't get into firefights with pistols.

*Most* rifles are fairly easy to disassemble and clean, and you generally don't have to do more than a field strip to keep a rifle operational. A rifle's working parts are made of steel, and should last forever if lubricated.

Here in western New Jersey, USA, there is a police installation every few miles. They have firearms and *plenty* of ammunition, and I know everyone in my immediate area who owns a firearm, and some own more than one, so there are enough to go around.

It is not as hard as you think to make gunpowder if you can find the components, and every large sporting good store sells ammunition reloading equipment. I can reload brass and make cartridges in my basement. Many, if not most, competition shooters assemble their own cartridges to insure the most accurate combinations possible. If I can do it, you can do it. Ammo will last as long as you will if you keep it it in a dry place.

It has been my experience that most gunsmithing jobs involve making the firearms more accurate, not to actually fix them, and as I said before, firearms will last for a very long time before requiring work to fix them.

Why go to a city? I can't think of any reason to go to a place that dangerous with radiation and disease after it has been bombed.

People would certainly fight over food. People would die, but their firearms and ammunition wouldn't. The fewer the people, the more guns and ammo to go around.

Earl of the North

You asked " So how many guns are available in your average (not near to anything important) town and how much ammo is available. Oh, and how long after the bombs are we talking".

Less in the Socialist states like New York and California, but just about everywhere else? *Plenty*.

I was assuming right after the missiles stopped being launched.

What would miniatures for US post apoc survivors for immediate or day after the nukes look like?

Modern US Soldiers
Modern Police
Modern civilians wearing a mixture of civilian and salvaged police/military equipment.

All likely to be carrying firearms.

Most post apoc survivors however are zombie apoc survivors in all but name, so close combat weapons are going to be the main weapons with firearms as weapons of last resort.

Firearms could be useful (we have a few) but we also
bought some hunting crossbows and slingshots. Granted,
the latter are not much use against large creatures,
but useful for rabbits, squirrels and other small game
if the food supply runs low. With small projectiles,
the slingshots are also useful for chasing away
coyotes and other nuisances without making a lot of
noise and disturbing the neighbors. Also the shot
won't carry far, unlike firearms which could be a hazard
to the folks 'round about.

The crossbows, however, are good weapons at a fair
range once you're used to them. Reloading time can
vary with your experience level. The crossbow
can take larger game animals (deer, especially).

Earl of the North

Probably not so many soldiers. The military installations are going to be hit first. So, yes, cops and civilians with firearms.

You said: "combat weapons are going to be the main weapons with firearms as weapons of last resort".

I disagree. I would use a firearm as a *first* resort. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

I question anyone who says they have "plenty" of ammo. There is a huge difference between planning to defend your home during a rare mob/riot situation, where the police restore order within a week, and the total destruction of civil authority.

Ask a veteran combat rifleman how much ammo they carried on their person, and how long that was supposed to last in a firefight.

And police stations carry "plenty" of ammo? Are they prepared for an endless riot? Every day, firing hundreds of rounds in a single firefight, and having a firefight every day. Assuming they can hold on to their ammo, it would be exhausted in a month. And assuming they head home to be with family, roving bands of citizens would clear that place out quickly, and face the same usage shortages quickly.

I have perhaps 20,000 rounds of various calibers. I doubt that is enough to last more than a couple of years, assuming I am low-key enough people don't think I have anything worth taking.

But in any post-apoc situation, after the easy to find food is gone (probably 1 month), and then the harder to find food is gone (probably by the end of the third or forth month), anyone still walking around has food. And that makes you a target.

A farm in the distance that looks like it is still intact will be approached. If they still have firearms, they will use them. Even if they win that fight, the noise made will attract more attention.

I figure that 12 months after an apocalypse, 90% of the people are dead from the actual attack, or starvation. People who need meds to stay alive are gone. People who need electricity to keep medical equipment running are now gone.

And most of the ammo will have been expended.

I find it realistic that people would be armed with hand weapons, not firearms.

Ed

Sure. Great re-usable arrows. Especially for hunting. The deer population here in western New Jersey is *huge*. There have actually been bear right behind my house. They have destroyed several of my bird feeders. The problem is that people will need food right away! Hunting for your town or small settlement would take too much time for an emergency situation. Hunting, fishing and growing crops would come after the initial panic was over. During that first year a *lot* of people would die killing each other.

It will also depend on where you live. If you are trying to scavenge for guns and ammo in San Francisco after the apocalypse you're not to find much. SF doesn't even have a gun store.

My gaming group decided to play a zombie game but limited the players to only weapons thay actually owned in real life.

Only one had a AR15 assault rifle, another had a Ruger mini14., the rest had WW2 bolt action rifles and one had nothing but a hammer. Not exactly a well armed group.

Seattlegamer

In my area, which is mostly farmland, I don't think that there would be rioting. More likely there would be bands of survivors fighting each other. In circumstances like that, the police would be no more useful for the prevention of fighting and looting than any other armed citizen. I'd be willing to match my ability with a pistol and/or rifle against any of our local LEO's. They would have to fight just like anyone else, and many of them would want to get home to their families, where they would just be regular guys with guns. They would take whatever arms and ammo is in their arsenals, which would be a *lot*, and if they are smart, they will arm their friends and families and some local people as well. Then they too will be a band of survivors, just like everyone else, but with a lot to steal.

Since you have ammo stored, I can assume that you know something about cartridges. Gunpowder is only a few components mixed together. Brass is reusable. Lead can be melted and reformed into bullets. Primers would be the difficult part. I know people that cast their own balls for muzzle loaders. It's not a stretch to imagine some enterprising people that will figure out how to make lead bullets for any caliber. They will make them and sell or trade them. This, of course, would happen *after* the panic and killing for food.

The initial problem, as i've said before, is going to be food. *Everybody* needs food, and I sincerely doubt that the available supply of non-perishable canned goods will last for three months. Every time there's a large snow storm threatening here, the shelves at Shop Rite are nearly cleaned out! Then there will be hoarders, who will store as much as they can to trade or eat themselves. Since people aren't going to look for food in small amounts that they only need for a few days, you can bet that the shelves will be cleaned *immediately*! *Many* people will be left with nothing to eat within two weeks. Starving people are very dangerous people.

And as I said before, firearms and ammo don't die, so after the population has been reduced to the few that will survive until they can hunt and fish, there will still be plenty to go around until people start making their own ammo. I think that your 20K rounds will last you through the initial culling if you band together with like minded people. That is if you don't live in Seattle, in which case you might be dead. And as Ed mentioned, arrows are reusable and great for hunting, so having less ammo will be less of a problem. I'm fairly proficient with a compound bow and could easily take deer, and probably people with baseball bats as well.

One of the other problems that nobody seems to talk about is that gasoline will go sour after a couple of months, and there's only a very small amount of gasoline stabilizer to go around. How will people get gasoline after that?

Rdfraf

You said: "Only one had a AR15 assault rifle, another had a Ruger mini14., the rest had WW2 bolt action rifles and one had nothing but a hammer. Not exactly a well armed group".

Depends on which WW II bolt action rifles they have, and how many. I have WW II Springfield 03A3 that's fine rifle. It can out shoot a Mini 14, and uses a more powerful cartridge too. It's just extremely heavy, and the same amount of rounds of 30.06 is much heavier than that of .223. If everyone in your group has at least one rifle, and the ammo for it, IMHO you have a pretty well armed group.

Probably not so many soldiers. The military installations are going to be hit first. So, yes, cops and civilians with firearms.

Military and National Guard that had already deployed was what I was thinking of, I'm assuming you will have some troops not killed in the immediate firestorm. Martial law, disaster relief, VIP transport etc.

You said: "combat weapons are going to be the main weapons with firearms as weapons of last resort".

I disagree. I would use a firearm as a *first* resort. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

NEVER bring a gun to a zombie fight (at least until your screwed either way), unless you want to draw every zombie from miles around directly to your location. As I wrote most immediate post apoc miniatures are zombie apoc miniatures hence the bias towards weapons not likely to lead to your death if you use them. No idea about silenced firearms though, are they loud enough to draw in zombies?

Did whatever wiped out 99 percent of the population nail 100% of the Walmarts?

Assuming a zombiepocalypse? Probably. Walmarts aren't particularly defendable as a building, and are going to be most people's first target to raid.

The reason to prepare for a zombiepocalypse is because you have by definition prepared for everything else at the same time. Complete collapse of government and services? Yup. Random mobs of looters? Yup. Food, water, shelter, and a way to keep it? Yup.

Here, read this: link

No idea about silenced firearms though, are they loud enough to draw in zombies?

If talking is loud enough to draw in zombies, so are suppressed firearms. Firearms are LOUD. Shotguns are instant-hearing-loss-with-one-shot loud. Not total hearing loss, but every shot without hearing protection is a measurable % of your hearing range gone forever. There's a reason I own 3 sets of electronic earmuffs, and wear a pair all the time while shooting.

A suppressor is usually just enough to get the muzzle blast down to not-permanently-damaging-to-hearing. That is, quiet enough to not need hearing protection. You will need a bigger suppressor if you're shooting inside, because the walls will bounce the muzzle blast back at you. Or you will need a 'standard' suppressor and hearing protection.

Some are good enough to really drop the muzzle blast, there's supposed to be a .50BMG suppressor that tames the thunder of a half-ounce of gunpowder down to .22 Short or airgun 'pop'.

I probably shouldn't mention how easy it is to make a suppressor good for a couple shots, but several of the Law&Order and CSI shows have done that work for me. A modern suppressor is good for thousands of shots without cleaning. Then you wait for it to cool off, unscrew the front, shake out the baffles, scrub all the black gunk off, lightly oil everything (to protect from rust), and re-assemble.

As far as how much ammo you would need goes, well, the typical grunt in my friend's Stryker unit was packing about 600 rounds for his rifle, and there was another 6000 rounds in the truck. The rounds in the truck were on stripper clips for the rifles, not belts for the SAWs. That's 20 magazines a person (I will note that the LRRP guys carried about 20 magazines a person in Vietnam, but most of the regular troops only carried 7-10 magazines).

My assumptions start at 'infantry basic load' and go up from there. That's 210 rounds of 5.56, ~140 rounds of 7.62. The basic load is assumed to be enough for one firefight. Multiply basic load times number of expected firefights for your stockpile. Also, this doesn't include training/practice ammo. You don't need to shoot competition-levels of ammo every year (that's over 10,000 rounds a year per weapon!), but you should shoot enough to be confident you can hit what you're aiming at, which to me is a hundred rounds or so every time I go shooting (granted, that's only every couple months). Per weapon.

You also get into 'how much weight are you carrying' really quickly. All those tacticool add-ons to a rifle add weight. IMO, the basic M1 Carbine was the best tool for the job. Only 5lbs, which makes it about twice the weight of a pistol. You can carry that all day long and not notice it.

I'm reminded of a zombieapocalyptic novel where there is actually a member of the group who executes those survivors who make to much noise, since any loud noise will attract the zombies…..also remember that they used zombie killing teams to clear houses, made up of spearmen to pin the zombies in place for the hatchet men to deliver the 'killing' blow.

Anyway to go back to the OP, I'd suggest you don't really need Post Apoc miniatures for an immediate/day after post apoc game…..ultra modern military/police and ultra modern armed militia would do the job. Mad Max and zombie apoc style games need their own miniatures.

For those of you don't mind plastic, warlord's zombie game has modern soldiers and survivors you could probably combine to get all three types.

Bullets attract more zombies and other survivors.

Zombies??? OK. I see. Since many post apoc games are zombie-centric, the minis would need hand held weapons. I don't play zombie games, and when I think of post apoc situations, I think in terms of reality, so the zombie-knife-in-the head thing never crossed my mind.

Frankly, unless discussing someone with access to military or law enforcement arsenals, using a combat infantryman's ammo load out is not particularly apt.

That combat infantryman is carrying a weapon capable of automatic fire and is expected to use that capability to suppress opponents.

With semi-auto and bolt action firearms that same volume of fire won't be occurring. It would have to be an extended engagement to require that level of ammo. While it has been done, very few people can get 50-60 rpm out of an Enfield let alone any other bolt.

And as far as firearms breaking down in the field, AKs and FNs at least are noted for reliability.

As to the question how long ammo lasts, I've fired cartridges which were at least 50 years old with no problems. Obviously the storage conditions will affect the longevity.

I still want to see someone address the problem of ragtag survivors being able to successfully break into gun safes. The people I know with anything more than a handgun or two have locked gun safes that would likely be beyond scavenging survivors to break into.

No bullets or gun in post Apoc but plenty of cars and motorcycles. So lots manufacturing, mining, drilling and refining operations still going on. Sure all these post apoc people know how to refine high test gasoline. And drill for it. You can't have car crashes in movies without cars. Not very interesting watching people trudge over hills and dales.

The Afghans went for decades just making their version of the Brown Bess. These jezails then were made of Martin-Henry's and even Lee-Enfields. So in the post Apoc suvivors could at least make these weapons.

@Yogi -- your experience is different than mine. I know a lot of people who own a lot of guns and they don't keep any -- or a select few -- of them in a safe. A lot of home safes are designed to keep honest people honest, or to prevent the burglar who is spending 1-2 minutes in your house from walking out with your stuff. As long as scavengers have some tools (pry bar, sledge, maybe some wedges) and some time, they are going to get into most commercial safes they come across. Better quality safes have the Underwriters Laboratory seal of approval and they are rated as T15 or T30 safes, which means they are rated to withstand either 15 or 30 minutes of physical force before they are compromised. Home safes are not going to keep scavengers from accessing the contents. And, in my experience, most guns aren't going to be locked up anyway.

Frankly, unless discussing someone with access to military or law enforcement arsenals, using a combat infantryman's ammo load out is not particularly apt.

Still applies, even if you're talking muzzle-loaders. The standard ACW infantry basic load was 50 rounds.

By the time you get to the bolt-actions like the Lee-Enfield, that's ~100 rounds in the pouches, and a few more in loops on the uniform.

100 rounds a man was good enough to survive the Pathan Revolt of 1898.