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"First Jassy-Kishinev Offensive" Topic


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337 hits since 18 Jul 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP18 Jul 2018 12:03 p.m. PST

"The First Jassy-Kishinev Offensive, was fought between 8 April and 6 June 1944 by the Soviets and Axis powers of World War II. The offensive was actually a coordinated invasion of Romania conducted by Red Army's 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts, in accordance with Joseph Stalin's strategy to project Soviet military power and political influence into the Balkans.

According to the plans of the Main Command of the Soviet Military (Stavka), the two Soviet fronts would cut-off Axis vital defensive lines in Northern Romania. This then would facilitate a subsequent advance by the Red Army into the entire Balkan region. The First Jassy-Kishinev Offensive, was fought between 8 April and 6 June 1944 by the Soviets and Axis powers of World War II. The offensive was actually a coordinated invasion of Romania conducted by Red Army's 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts, in accordance with Joseph Stalin's strategy to project Soviet military power and political influence into the Balkans…."


picture


Main page
link


Wonder to know if any fellow member have wargame this battle….

Amicalement
Armand

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP19 Jul 2018 1:37 p.m. PST

For those seeking more information Col David Glantz has a rather excellent book (but then arent most of his) "Red Storm Over The Balkans: The Failed Soviet Invasion of Romania, Spring 1944". University Press of Kansas, 2007.

link

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP19 Jul 2018 2:53 p.m. PST

Many thanks!!


Amicalement
Armand

Mark 119 Jul 2018 5:14 p.m. PST

I found the article in the OP link rather poorly written. Actually, if pushed I might choose even harsher terms. Or even if not pushed.

Reads like a poor cut-and-paste job done by a middle-schooler who has run to Wikipedia just 15 minutes before class to complete an assignment he has been putting off for the last 2 weeks. Or, at least, like a poor re-typing job I might have done as a Jr. High schooler after grabbing one book out of my parent's Encyclopedia set just half an hour before bedtime the night before a 2 week assignment was due.

I grew up in more primitive times.

I would urge anyone who might be interested in this particular campaign to go straight to Wiki for the story: link
You'll get more information, and you won't have to read through the same passages 2 and 3 times to get it.

But then Marc33594 comes along, and now all I can think is "oh look, a Glantz book I don't have! … Yet."
8)

It is an interesting coincidence that Tango published this topic just today. I have just finished reading the section on this same Jassy-Kishinev Offensive in Forzcyk's "Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front, 1943-45". link

I very much recommend this book. Excellent quality of research. A bit more readable than Glantz (who can be very dry), with more of the kind of info that gamers might use to build scenarios. For example, in the fighting around Tirgu Fromos (which is mentioned in the linked piece of the OP), Forzcyk tells readers:

…Brigadier-General Radu Korne's 1st Armored Division (actually, Romania's "1st AND ONLY Armored Division" -Mk1)…had several dozen Pz IVs and a dozen StuG-III assualt guns, as well as some SPWs for its infantry.

Shumilov's 7 GA achieves some success west of Tirgu Fromos, where the 8th Guards Airborne Division and the 18 TC succeeded in routing the Romanian 6th Infantry Division. However, Korne moved a battlegroup of his armored division to prevent a complete collapse of this sector and Konev failed to reinforce his success here.

See, now THAT is some interesting stuff I might be able to use! I have a Romanian force, and while I've seen other sources mention that the Romanians began receiving Pz IVs (usually described as Pz IVHs) by April of 1944, I have not before seen a lot of information on when/where they might have been used. StuGs yes, but Pz IVs not so much.

Also there is a reasonably good description of the first time JS-2s fought Tigers, when 13 JS-2s of the 14th Guards Separate Heavy Tank Regiment were engaged by 8 Tigers of Panzer-Regiment Grossdeutchland, and how the Germans were able to out-fight the JS-2s even though they initially saw their rounds bouncing off at ranges of 2,000+ meters. (Here's an interesting bit -- multiple JS-2s in this exchange were actually knocked out by Pz IVs!).

So while I can't claim to have wargamed it yet, I would certainly say it looks like rich pickings for future scenarios.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP19 Jul 2018 9:48 p.m. PST

Thanks also… at least the article was very useful to know (thanks to you) about those good links and info…(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jul 2018 4:39 a.m. PST

Mark

Like you have a Romanian force, and Hungarian too, in 15mm. Am sure you have probably seen this resource:
worldwar2.ro

VERY interesting and helpful. Under weapons, armor, they talk in depth about the T-4, the Romanian designation for the Pz IV. According to the article the Romanians actually received their first PZ IVs (G model) in October of 1942.
link

Well worth the look.

Marc

deephorse20 Jul 2018 5:02 a.m. PST

Delivered on 17th October according to "Third Axis, Fourth Ally".

Mark 120 Jul 2018 11:16 a.m. PST

Am sure you have probably seen this resource:
worldwar2.ro

VERY interesting and helpful.


Quite agree. Very useful site. In the past I also participated in their fora discussions ( worldwar2.ro/forum ), although I have not posted there in probably 5 years or more.

The materials on that site helped me organize my Romanian force.

As one of my more recent efforts, I consider my Romanians to be among my best researched and constructed forces.

I have also gamed Operation Munich scenarios that I developed from the Military Operations section of the website.

Like you have a Romanian force, and Hungarian too, in 15mm.

My forces are all 6mm. But that does not mean I am adverse to seeing other armies in other scales. When someone can be persuaded to post pics, that is…

Under weapons, armor, they talk in depth about the T-4, the Romanian designation for the Pz IV. According to the article the Romanians actually received their first PZ IVs (G model) in October of 1942.

True. I clearly missed mentioning the initial 1942 deliveries in my posting above.

From memory of my research some 6-8 years ago, much done on that site, almost all of the few initial T-4s (Pz IVg) and T-3s (Pz IIIs) that had been received in 1942 were lost within weeks of reaching the front during the Soviet Stalingrad offensive. During 1943 the only tanks provided by Germany to Romania that saw combat were T-38s (Pz 38t) that were seconded to Romania after they were removed from German service. These served the cavalry divisions in Crimea during 1943. Although some 50 or so were actually provided to the three cavalry divisions in Crimea, it appears they were so worn out that no more than maybe 5 were in operating condition on any given day.

I usually try to build my forces with the flexibility to serve many different battles or campaigns. I'm considering building a Romanian cavalry force (using Baccus French Cavalry as my base, with some H&R R-1s for early war, and GHQ T-38s (Pz 38t) for 1943 Crimea). But I have not yet committed myself to that increment to my Romanian forces.

While the early T-4s (Pz IVg) and T-3s (Pz IIIn) it may be useful for others (and I would have every enthusiasm for joining into a game and using them), I have not given much thought to adding to my force kit that would have only been available for November and December of 1942.

Far easier for me to add to my existing force would be some later T-4s (Pz IVh or j) and some TAs (StuG III). With these I can just slide 'em on in to the force I already have, and presto! I'm ready for summer/fall 1944 action!


-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Fred Cartwright20 Jul 2018 12:18 p.m. PST

Lovely stuff Mark!

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP21 Jul 2018 4:26 a.m. PST

Well done Mark. Be fun to game with you.

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