"Ancient Chinese Barbarians?" Topic

A recent thread remined me of First Corps Shang (former Curteys) warriors.
I bought those some time ago and I find them very interesting. Those miniatures have a lot of character. Only problem is that they lack an enemy. They could fight themself, but I would prefer ancient chinese barbarians. Nobody produces them but I am thinking of converting Aztect levies or warriors from Lucid Eyes Jaguar Tribe or Copplestones Amazon Indians.

So what do think?

Newline?

Well… I'm the miscreant who started that (I assume you are referring to my thread). John Kersey, who wrote the WI article in 2000 to which I referred, suggested buying "barbarians" of one descript or another from Amazon Minis, but was not more specific. He also suggested buying "Settlement" figures from Steve Barber… which are seemingly still available. I'm slightly leery of that as Steve's figures look to be more suitable as "Cro Magnon" people for 50,000BC in Eurasia than some sort of East Asian "early man" (and I think he sells them that way, i.e., meaning them as "Cro Magnon," but I am not familiar with Steve's "Settlement" rules, or his intentions with his line, so can't be certain).

My own thoughts run as follows:

1) There seems to be plenty of evidence, and IIRC, to which John alluded in his article, that the Shang "emperors" (kings?) often had to contend with rebellions by one or more upstart "dukes." Therefore, it should be quite natural to in fact have "Shang fight Shang." Using John's suggested "order of battle," the Shang "king" (or "emperor") would lead his "royal guard," plus his own "clan warriors," and any "barbarian allies" he could muster. The king could also count on at least a few "loyal dukes" who would be leading their own "clan warriors." If the rebellion were dire enough a threat, and if he could assemble them, the king could also amass "loyal peasant levies" from the masses not engaged in planting or the harvest… The upstart "dukes" would lead an army of their own "clan warriors," and any "barbarian allies" THEY could muster. They might also manage to assemble some "peasant levies" from their own fiefdoms…

2) One should remember that according to the "Records of the Grand Scribe" (or "Grand Historian"), Sima Qian, the Shang rose to power by overthrowing the preceding Xia (Shia) "Dynasty." There's a lot of hubbub and teeth-gnashing between historians and archaeologists about whether the Xia actually existed, or if they did, could they be called a "dynasty" (an "empire")? However, increasingly a "culture" with urbanized centers has been revealed in the past several decades, right where the Xia should have been, dated to the period roughly 2000-1700BC, so it's looking more and more like "something" that was "civilized" certainly predated the Shang. Personally, IF I decide to "recreate" the Xia, I will probably just use 1st Corps "Shang" figures, and vary the paint schemes…

3) The Shang were overthrown by the "Zhou" (aka "Chu"), and note that 1st Corps make no distinction between "Shang" and "Zhou" infantry, but do make separate "Zhou" chariots? I've been tempted to write (email) 1st Corps to see if they would sell me the "Zhou nobles" from the chariots -- enough of them anyway to replace the "Shang officers" in the infantry command sets? And then? …vary the paint schemes…

4) The real quandary is, what to use as "barbarian" figures? I think that Wargames Foundry Aztec "novices" like "AZ018 – Novice Aztec Warriors" COULD -- with some modifications -- work well enough as substitutes for figure A2 in the relevant Osprey volume; i.e. as "Yi Barbarians." You would have to explain why they were wearing loincloths instead of skins, for example. And probably would NOT want to use the ones in each pack wearing a "vest" or "torso armor?" You could probably excuse the one's with "spears" tipped, and "wooden swords" ("clubs") edged with obsidian as instead employing sharp pieces of flint? Or, you could drill them out and replace them with clubs, or with wire spears, and paint the tips as either "bone" or "stone?" Still…

I myself an open to other suggestions!! Cheers!

Foundry Bronze Age Europeans?
Sumerians?
Early Saka?
And why not fall back on Saxons, Loincloth wearing Picts, Franks….

Depends on what you think East Asian "barbarians" should look like, I imagine?

In the Bronze Age, I think they should look like Asians, not Europeans.

As to Scythians and Saka, there is no evidence I can find that the Eurasian Steppe Nomads combined horse-riding flock-tending skills with the recurved bow, and the tactics to use them, in either Greek or Chinese (Zhou) sources, before ca. 700BC.

So in my own case, as I am interested right now in Bronze Age Shang and early ("Western") Zhou China, I am looking for "foot-cavalry," Asian-looking light infantry to fill the barbarian role.

I am, however, still looking for references that the nomads might have had chariots themselves? Or perhaps used very light wagons (carts), pulled by ponies instead of oxen, as chariot substitutes? After all, a cart as a "battle-wagon" one day can haul away plunder the next!

Happy for others' thoughts! Cheers!

It did occur to me to wander through the pages of the 1st Corps website, as they actually make a fairly extensive Asian range, between Chinese and Japanese (Samurai) subjects. Tucked away in the "Song" ("Sung") pages are three versions of "Tribal" infantry, being an option of warriors of a sort with large, and a second option with small "basketwork" shields, and then some archers. Now, to my mind, especially as these are NOT for the Bronze Age, but rather for the period 960-1279AD, that for "barbarians" they are too civilized! E.G., they are sculpted wearing "man buns" (top knots), and it's not clear from the illustrations if they are wearing loincloths or "shorts" (short trousers); I'd bet it's the latter. "Real barbarians" would at LEAST be letting their hair fly free, eh?? Still, they are an option for "Southern Barbarians" -- albeit rather limited (e.g., no command figures).

What remains, though, is to keep searching out suitable figures for "Northern Barbarians" -- still working that!