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"How many tanks did the Germans loose at Arnhem?" Topic


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1,370 hits since 15 Jul 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2018 9:57 a.m. PST

Just Arnhem, were they didn't face armor.

deephorse15 Jul 2018 10:43 a.m. PST

Are you including StuGs and armoured cars in your definition of "tanks", or just tanks?

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2018 10:43 a.m. PST

This might help – but it looks like not a lot

link

Tgunner15 Jul 2018 10:47 a.m. PST

By Arnhem do you mean at the bridge itself or in the 1st Airborne Zone?

If you meant at the bridge then not many.

The game, Storm Over Arnhem mentions that the British claimed that they killed a few tanks- something like a Tiger and six Mark IV Panzers. The SoA rules point out that there was a company of Panzer IIIs (10 total) there as part of one of the training battalions which was probably the source of any tanks at Arnhem itself beyond the Tigers of the 506 Battalion. So SoA assumes that they were Panzer IIIs.

The Germans didn't have a lot of tanks at Arnhem beyond those two sources (the training tanks and the 506 Heavy Panzer Battalion).

The source about destroyed German armor at Arnhem is very interesting as it shows two dead Panzer IVs. Were those at the bridge or somewhere else like Oosterbeek?

uglyfatbloke15 Jul 2018 11:13 a.m. PST

Looks like 22 AFVs and halftracks on the Defending Arnhem site.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2018 1:45 p.m. PST

I was talking the battle of Arnhem so the entire 1st airborne area.
Stugs are tanks. They are tanky with a big boom boom gun. That's a tank no matter what people pretend it to be. Far more a tank than a Panzer I or II.

advocate15 Jul 2018 4:14 p.m. PST

I like your definition, Gunfreak,

Starfury Rider15 Jul 2018 4:43 p.m. PST

I did too, but I'm sure the 'tanky' purists will argue about the correct delineation between a 'big boom boom' gun and the lesser 'big boom' gun – does one use calibre, armour penetration, or actual recordable 'boom'? And if the latter, how do you correct for echo?

I seem to recall there being an Arnhem website with its own forum but can't remember the title. That may have some detail. I do know in the post operation report there was a call for more PIATs to be issued for anti-tank gun units so they could 'stalk' targets in built up areas. I think they also reported all 6-pdr amn available to guns had been fired by the time of the withdrawal, but there was still 17-pdr amn available.

Gary

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2018 6:21 p.m. PST

There's more lost in the 1st Airborne zone. I keep running into "booty panzer" French tanks, though I don't know whether they were a training unit or some sort of rear security detachment.

Desert Fox15 Jul 2018 7:17 p.m. PST

I believe there at least one more IVs lost. The Operation Market Garden Then and Now Book

link

shows a wrecked panzer IV that was able to maneuver off the Arnhem bridge only to be destroyed near the school. I think the book also shows one more IV destroyed in Arnhem very near the bridge.

Sorry, but I loaned out my copy months ago so I cannot give a page number.

Martin Rapier15 Jul 2018 11:16 p.m. PST

If you want overall levels of armour, that is fairly easy as it has been extensively researched. Losses, as with all German losses during Market Garden, are far harder to ascertain with any accuracy.

The French tanks were part of Pz Ko 224, and another Beutepanzer company sent to KG von Tettau whose name escapes me.

Andy ONeill16 Jul 2018 1:19 a.m. PST

I think Beute translates literally as trophy. A beutepanzer was a captured foreign tank put into german service. Most of those lost were Char B.

Which weren't great tanks by 1944 standards and the French designs had quite poor close visibility.
I should think crew quality would have been more significant in their performance if you're gaming this.

4th Cuirassier16 Jul 2018 1:38 a.m. PST

Does anyone else find the term "booty panzer" funny, or is it only me whose development has been arrested?

Bindon Blood16 Jul 2018 3:25 a.m. PST

I liked 'booty panzer' too :)

Legion 416 Jul 2018 8:21 a.m. PST

thumbs up Is that like "Panzer Porn" ?

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP17 Jul 2018 5:34 p.m. PST

I'm told German "beute" is cognate with English "booty" and has a similar meaning, which would make sense. You lose undertones from one language to another, but you lose them in the same language over time.

Agree they Char B's wouldn't have been prime vehicles in late 1944 for a number of reasons, but Gunfreak was asking for tank losses, not--I think--how much they were worth for insurance purposes.

Martin Rapier18 Jul 2018 3:44 a.m. PST

I think the fact is that no-one knows, not even the Germans, as it depends how you define 'lost', as many of them were recovered after the battle or were only temporarily disabled. There were only a few outright wrecks left behind (the Tiger II in Oosterbeek, a few burned our Char Bs from Pz Ko 224, a few Pz IVs from 10th SS Panzer Regiment and a couple of Stugs).

Panzer Company Mielke was reduced from two Pz IV and eight Pz III to just three Pz III by the time it got to Elst though, get there weren't piles of burned out Pz IIIs left lying around.

Panzer Company Hummel 'lost' 12 of its 14 Tiger 1s on the approach march, yet magically five of those Tigers later appeared in Betuwe where they were ambushed by 43rd Wessex and knocked out.

In fact most of the German armour losses occurred south of Arnhem, as that was where almost all the German armour was sent. Schwerpunkt Nijmegen and all that.

IInd SS Panzer Corps started the battle with 8-10 Panthers (accounts vary), 16 Panzer IVs, four Stugs, two Jagdpanzer IVs (plus another 15 Jagdpanzer IVs with KG Walther) and a handful of Mobelwagens which were used as SP guns.

It was reinforced with Pz Ko 224 (approx 15 Char B Flammpanzers), Pz Ko Mielke (2 x Pz IV, 8 Pz III), 280 Stug Brigade (10 x Stug III), 506th Tiger Bn (45 x Tiger II) and Pz Ko Hummel (14 x Tiger 1) plus a load of SP Flak.

Of that lot, the only tanks which fought at Arnhem itself were 2 x Jagdpanzer IVs with KG von Allworden, Pz Ko Mielke, Stug Brigade 280, Pz Ko 224 with Tettau 0-2 x Panthers with 9th SS and some bits of 10th SS Panzer (mainly the 16xPz IVs) in support of KG Brinkman for a short period before they were all shipped over the Rhine.

KG Knaust grabbed a couple of Tiger 1s from Pz Ko Hummel and a single company of the 506th was sent to Oosterbeek.

That is roughly 60 tanks and assault guns, excluding all the SP Flak, armed halftracks and armoured cars (which survived from Graebners battalion).

Of that lot we know that Pz KO 224 was largely destroyed, Mielke lost half, some of the Stugs, Pz IVs and JP IVs were knocked out and the 506th lost one Tiger II, so around 35 lost, possibly 40 if feeling generous and including vehicles abandoned.

Which is slightly over half the armour committed, excluding all the light stuff and SP Flak (of which there was lots).

Legion 418 Jul 2018 7:23 a.m. PST

I'm told German "beute" is cognate with English "booty" and has a similar meaning, which would make sense. You lose undertones from one language to another, but you lose them in the same language over time.
The Germans were well know for using almost anything they captured. Especially AFVs, cannons, etc., e.g. French, UK, Russian, US, etc. And of course the "annexed" Czech Tanks, including a large number of Chassis repurposed, like with many captured French vehicles.

William Ulsterman18 Jul 2018 5:03 p.m. PST

I wonder how many of those Char B tanks were the converted flamethrower tanks?

Andy ONeill19 Jul 2018 3:08 a.m. PST

Booty used to mean spoils of war. The word has, unfortunately, been repurposed.

uglyfatbloke19 Jul 2018 5:33 a.m. PST

X2 for Martin Rapier – I had posted to the same effect, but it seems to have disappeared.
William – it would seem most if not all, but the company's tanks were knocked out, disabled or chased off/withdrawn before they got close enough to do any serious damage.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP19 Jul 2018 1:48 p.m. PST

William; posted this on another topic and apologize to those who this is a repeat.

Panzerjager Abtellung 657, Panzer Kompanie 224 had the following organization:
HQ 1 PzKpfw 35S and 1 Flammpanzer
1st and 2nd Zug each had 4 Flammpanzer and 1 PzKpfw B2
3rd Zug had 5 Flammpanzer

So out of 16 Char B 14 were the flame variety.

"German Armored Units at Arnhem September 1944" by Marcel Zwarts. Armor at War Series # 7039, Concord Publicaitons.

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