"Young Gamers Don't Like Historical Gaming" Topic

True or false?

"Young" meaning under 30! As someone here says, "…the kids favor fantasy and SF…"

False. Not all young people avoid Historical Games. There are a number of young people that enjoy historicals in my area.

Do the young prefer fantasy and Sci-Fi? True.

I believe more of them play in these genres than historicals. Hopefully they will develop an interest in historicals as they age just as I have. I want to see this hobby to carry-on and to do that, it needs fresh blood.

That is part of the reason I like to run demo games for people.

True. And there is nothing wrong with that.

That was true at my local game shop until the new owner started stocking Warlord / Bolt Action products about 2 years ago.

Now, there are several tables on a typical game night with 20 – 30 year olds playing.

We quit going to the FLGS because the one guy we thought we could recruit abandoned the game when he was needed in the computer games running on the wall.
Frankly, I don't give a wet fart about "recruiting the young". I'm happy with the group I'm in. I owe nothing to…
Besides, it didn't look kosher with a group of middle aged men trying to recruit kids.

With political correctness championed by the young wrecking other hobbies I'm beginning to wonder if recruiting young people might be dangerous for something as "incorrect" as wargaming!

Just curious, but what other hobbies are being wrecked by political correctness?

If they are exposed to it, some will try and like it. This is what some of us try to do.

Every new generation are idiots when they are young. I can vouch for it, as I was young just some 40 years ago. Will their tastes change as they age? Yes, inevitably, but the question is, will it be in time to prevent the loss of existing historical publishers and manufacturers.

attilathepun47 has excellent insight.

Hating Millennials has become something of a sport among the older generations.

That renders any criticism of them suspect (not untrue per se, simply suspect).

False.
I've found many will play anything as long as its fun.

Yes. But obviously some like it, it might boil to how they are introduced to it, and how apealing the thing is.
As I said elsewhere 40-50% of the new youth have no connections with the history of Europeans, hardly can vibrate to the same things that made us (over 50!) get Funcken books for xmas, have 100s of Airfix in garden, have grand parents who can tell stories, families who know one ancestor went to Russia in 1812 etc.
Most of the other 50% are constently being told their history is bad, that military history is nothing to be proud of.
Historical military games and historical novels are plumetting in sales.
A lot of historical games have just a majority of the minis , historical, the rest is fantasy.
Also easier to go into some mainstream fantasy game where you hardly need to know anything, for which promotion is well done, politically correct.
I am constantly surprised by the number of US guys looking here for players in relatively populated aeras, considering it as a testimony.

Strangely we never had so much stuff available, (and that just means some guys work on it, and the remaining old guys have money) in figures and easily reachable doc. But it is not corelated.
Recently asked mr google for many quick answers, drummers or Hungarian generals etc. a dying paradise.
No judging, just watching.
An old lean grumbler😜😋😋😋

Two "under thirties" playing the French assaulting me and another "under thirty" (the one on the right's fiancée) defending Forts Guadalupe and Loreto at the Battle of Puebla on last Cinco de Mayo (actually a couple weeks late, but still in May)

Most of the other 50% are constently being told their history is bad, that military history is nothing to be proud of.

I suppose that depends on who the kids are. SOM and DOM grew up with their grandmother lauding the American troops for defeating the Nazis and American and British troops for helping them escape the Soviet Union and wait for legal immigration to the US.

I believe that young gamers do like historical gaming but as with so many other aspects, they have a multiplicity of other entertainments to divert them from gaming. Thus the section of society that becomes young gamers is far smaller than before, who had more limited entertainment options.

Combine that with, as one poster has noted, the unfortunate societal anti-military/anti-history sect, which condemns and seeks to obliterate anything with a military leaning which certainly doesn't help recruitment. (Though I find it odd that those very same detractors who routinely condemn western history as "absolutely vile imperialism/colonialism", etc, will lap up fantasy military history, imperialism and violence, e.g. Game of Thrones, like it's going out of fashion!)

Anyway, given the many varied forms of current entertainment, I think that actually young gamers involvement in historical wargaming is doing /will do pretty well, or as well as can be expected, given the massive variety of games and figures currently available. Perhaps it's just a matter of how we present historical gaming to younger players.

DB

SOM? DOM?
Good you have some. The fiancee might do it to be with mate… Then turns out to overcome social barrage and lie the fun.
I speak of what I saw in the US, Uk, and esp in France. When the the former "avant garde" pr old leaders died in several big cities, no one else went instead. Only small saga type etc. and fantasy games left. Mostly.
And of course you can always find the local few to contradict.
For Historical novels I can vouch the sharp fall of sales. Seems to me same customers.
Lets enjoy " après moi le déluge" as said LouisXV.

We have about 3 in our group plus two in their 30s…who will inherit collections of over onehundred thousand figures…so we need them stay interested,,

We have from 8 to 15 players in our games. Most are in their teens and under 25 a few in their 40's and two over 60 including me. We play AWI, FIW and Medievals. They enjoy all the games. The figures we use are 40mm.

In my experience they can be tempted to play with historical figures, but remain disinterested in actual history and basically approach games as 40k in old fashioned clothes. YMMV.

Like Winston Smith, I don't care about what youngsters play or like anymore than they care what I play or like.

I'm at Historicon right now, and there appear to be plenty of under 30 gamers playing historical games.

Anecdotally, yes, as someone in my lower 20s I would say that the wargamers my age in my area would tend to prefer sci-fi. I do some sci-fi, but also a few historic periods, Early Medieval/Late Antiquity, AWI, Eastern theater ACW, and Cold War hypothetical. Obviously a couple of those are just dabbled in or end up having largely proxy armies in the slow process of being replaced, but I still enjoy them.

A few of my peers have some fun when I bring something in, but none would go out of their way to play historicals themselves. Why would you take the time to find out Orders of Battle for First Bull Run or the importance of the Battle of Trenton, let alone a plausible scenario where British Chieftains are squaring off with Soviet operates tanks and the whole world doesn't glow in the dark? It's so much easier to order a GW army box on Amazon or eBay and then make up your own uninspired paint scheme for some space marines.

Historic wargaming, for many, seems like so much more effort, it can even come across as intimidating when you ask yourself "are what ifs okay" or "how historic of tactics is historic enough" or whether you did enough research. Heck I'm painting some Picts right now and I'm still worrying about having used too much green.

As for the PC angle, I don't know. I think it's more a who cares angle. A lot of my peers just really don't give a crap about the background behind a skirmish game set at King's Mountain. Now if I put someone in Jackson's shoes to recon Patterson at Harper's Ferry I might get some whining about "playing as the bad guys" depending on who you were dealing with, and heaven help me if my college found out I was using my ACW cavalry to run "racist" Comanche Wars games of the Men Who Would Be Kings. But I don't think as many young people as you think are consciously and painfully PC. In fact the main and hip way to "rebel" right now is to flat out deny all forms of political correctness to the edge of denying politeness too.

The kids don't do historics, but it's probably because they can't be bothered with the effort.

Right.
Pc is not mostly intentional, it becomes an atmosphere, unconcious self censorship.
And as I said that looks to me so strange as nowadays it is so easy to find a lot of info with very little effort.

SOM? DOM?

Son-of-Mine and Daughter-of-Mine

A lot don't but some do – No 2 son loves to push Panzers across the table (and also Orks)

Next to nobody does historicals in Norway. But many of Norway's population is over 30.
It's what they've been exposed to.
I'm barely 30 and I've been historically wargaming since I was 23.

> Hating Millennials has become something of a sport among the older generations.

Change that to "Hating the young has been something of a sport among older generations from the start of time" and you have the truth of it.

No one here hates any " millenoal". Just witnesses. Not even judgement, just on behalf of my hobby I love. A huge partizan of freedom😇😃

I am a Professor of History at a public university. In 2013, after learning about my interest in war-gaming, some of my students asked if I would give them a tutorial on how to paint historical miniatures. I reserved a room in which we could meet once a week for five weeks where I would cover the fundamentals of painting, as well as how to research uniforms of various periods. A little over a dozen students (fairly evenly divided between males and females) participated in all five tutorial meetings that I set up. I know that at least five of these individuals have continued to paint miniatures. In addition, twice every semester, a couple of other professors and I host History Club and Zombie Survivalists' Club Game Nights. These usually last from 7:00 PM to 2:00 AM. Usually during the course of the evening anywhere between 30 and 60 students will participate in these game nights. Over half of the students who attend play historical games, while the remainder play zombie themed games. Since the history related games are beating out the zombie themed games among these 18 to 22 year-olds, I would conclude that the future of our hobby might not be as grim as some of you are thinking.

@Kevin C,

Well, that is pretty impressive--assuming there is not something exotic in the water at your locale. I offer my compliments on your initiative, and plaudits to those of your students who are taking up the hobby.

My 11 yo only plays games with Soviet tanks. He can't understand how his brother likes scifi.

Heck, all the local stores in my area, and almost every area I've been to and that is a good bit of the USA since I travel for work are missing out! From the sounds of things here they would make a killing if they carried historical minis instead of the scifi and fantasy they all carry…

Notable exceptions are The Source Comics and Games in Minneapolis and a couple other spots I don't remember.

I don't know if I'd say that about younger gamers avoiding historical …

But I can certainly say many/most e.g. under 30(?), have little to NO idea about history of any kind. Save for the score of last night's game, what Kim and JLow did last week, etc., …

I think the style of gaming currently works against historical gaming. Large army representation is out, skirmish is in. Young people are looking into easy entry. Colorful rules, with all you need to know to play a game is in. Some who start this way will become more involved.

I think the style of gaming currently works against historical gaming. Large army representation is out, skirmish is in

But isn't the current style exactly that? Frostgrave, Saga, 2 hour Wargames, Pulp, all of these are low miniatures games and don't require research to find the correct uniform for the French retreat from Moskau

After reading this thread i've come to the conclusion that it may not be a case of 'Young Gamers don't like historical gaming' as much as it may be 'historical gaming doesn't like young gamers'…

FALSE

I started out in my mid-late 20's getting into historicals,I'm still at it at 55.

Young people are looking into easy entry

That seems to be true for most of them in all aspects of life.

I started gaming in the mid-60s. But after I got out of the Army in '90. All I do is Sci-fi … I guess I'm complicated that way …

Young people are looking into easy entry

It's so much easier to order a GW army box on Amazon or eBay and then make up your own uninspired paint scheme for some space marines.

I dunno … some of the 40K players I have seen have read more historical background … er … fluff and memorized more OOB and weapon characteristics than many a historical gamer. Disagree? I will debate the topic with you after you finish this reading list. Most of those AFAIK are 300-400 page paperback novels.

I would love to have as much background historical information about the Battle of Puebla as is in the Horus Heresy novel series (one SOM read) alone (~23K (paperback novel) pages of books).

Also, all their data is (1) (highly) authoritative and (2) (extremely) free of conflicting information. That may be more attractive for gaming than zap-zap vs ready, aim, fire!

I mean, who doesn't want to listen to two dudes arguing over how many Spartans were in the 300 and what the specific ratio of armaments and experience was in their support troops instead of playing Thermopylae?

I'd think many Sci-fi and/or fantasy gamers, especially older ones may be "students" of history. As well as enjoy "non-historical" games too.

And of course there are some of the younger ones that just like "bright shiny things" and go with/get attracted by that. E.g. IMO, Many of GW's marketing/business model is a good example of that. But I could be wrong …

Now, as in all previous eras, we can only (and must) lead the newbie and the youth to the fountain of historical gaming, from which many varying-flavored taps flow. They must drink, from whichever source, of their own free will, but we must encourage them to do so in the hope that they may graduate from Kool-Aid and Pepsi to neighboring outlets of coffees and teas and quality beers and wines, sharpening their perceptions and honing their appreciations for the hobby, the craftsmanship of miniatures-painting, and the love of research for its own purpose--of course taking up a sudden mad binge of looking into the cultures and mythologies of Northeastern Native American Nations of the trans-colonization period for an upcoming game of Flint and Feather, or reading a Christopher Marlow play to get in trim for a Jeff Wasileski Elizabethan Frostgrave-based Shakepeare-involved fracas is something any high school student would do on their own, isn't it?

My observation is that younger gamers don't dislike historical wargaming so much as they dislike the historical wargamers.

Historical wargamers have too many history/rules bullies and pedants among their numbers. Few are attracted to some anal retentive's, subjective conclusions concerning reality and their need to overcome their boring existence with a pseudo intellectual one-upmanship based on some slop gleaned in a specialty book on a military subject.

As much as sci-fi gaming might be pathetic, who wants to expose themselves to two men throwing chairs around concerning whether the Panzer III-J was available in large numbers in August or September 1941?

Of course, it's not all historical gamers but the ones with the clerk-like mentalities who are in pursuit of how it really was are a turn off, even if they believe theyre never wrong. Dwindling engagement in historical wargaming by new entrants demonstrates that you can be both right AND wrong.

Remember that next time you feel the urge to mention that Landsknects in pluderhosen can't be in a re-fight of the battle of Ravenna. :)

I'm a student of history, and gamed historically most of my life. But after I got out of the Army, I just went to Sci-fi. But with a strong dose of reality. I.e. pretty much Hard Sci-fi, not Sci-fantasy. E.g. Hammer's Slammers vs. 40K …