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"Duchy of Berg standards problem" Topic


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560 hits since 11 Jul 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gazzola12 Jul 2018 9:20 a.m. PST

I have been searching out what standards the Duchy of Berg units had from 1809 onwards, especially the cavalry.

From what I can find, so far, is that up to 1808, both the infantry and cavalry had standards with a red/crimson/amaranth background, a white central octagon with gold decorations around the edge and in each corner, as shown in the Osprey MAA 115, Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (3) page 6.

From 1808, sources suggest that Napoleon gave the infantry new standards which consisted of a white field with an eagle in the centre and gold decorations in each corner. An image of this can be seen on page 7 of the same Osprey Flags book.

But I can find no information in the Osprey book (or elsewhere) to suggest that the cavalry units were also given these new standards. But I can't see Napoleon not changing the cavalry standards at the same time, unless there is a specific reason for not doing so?

I will appreciate any help and advice on this.

BillyNM12 Jul 2018 9:38 a.m. PST

The Osprey is on line at PDF link

138SquadronRAF Supporting Member of TMP12 Jul 2018 10:54 a.m. PST

How about this mate!

link

rmaker12 Jul 2018 12:28 p.m. PST

Since the cavalry were lights, they would not have carried their standards in the field.

Prince of Essling12 Jul 2018 12:37 p.m. PST

picture

picture

Gazzola12 Jul 2018 2:32 p.m. PST

138SquadronRAF

Thanks for link. That was actually one of the sources I came across in my search for an answer. Unfortunately, the site, as good as it is, does not seem to know about any possible changes to cavalry standards.

The answer is out there somewhere. I just have to keep looking.

Gazzola12 Jul 2018 2:36 p.m. PST

Prince of Essling

Nice images. Again, they appear to show that up to 1808-9, the cavalry had the red standard.

While researching the Berg units, especially the cavalry, it was a question that came up and it has become one of those things you just 'need' to find the answer to.

Thanks for posting the images. Much appreciated.

Prince of Essling13 Jul 2018 4:55 a.m. PST

According to page 15 Osprey MAA"Napoleon's German Allies (1)Westfalia and Kleve-Berg" by Otto von Pivka & Michael roffe – the standard of the original Chevaulegers went to Naples with the men who accompanied Murat there in 1808. This does not seem to have been replaced.

Turning to the 2nd Regiment of Chevauleger lanciers, they apparently received a green standard 60 centimetres high by 48 centimetres wide bearing on the face side a silver grenade with gold flames bnetween the gold initials "B" and "G", and on the reverse a number (2?) within gold laurel wreaths. This rather sketchy description is apparently given by the Russian General Gekkel in his book describing the many trophies captured by the Russians in 1812 and laid up in the cathedral of Notre dame de Kazan in Petrograd (modern day St Petersburg). The standard was lost in the Berezina crossing.

No flags or standards were issued to the new Berg units raised in 1813.

marshalGreg13 Jul 2018 11:02 a.m. PST

I have the picture of this B-C standard from Hekkel-Kasan of Russian captured artifacts:
Tafel Nr. 45
Standarte des bergischen Cheveau-Legrs Regimentes General Deletre
Brigarde, 9. Armeekorps Marshall Victor. Die Standarte wurde beim
übersetzen über den Fluß Beresina am 15. November 1812 erbeutet.
Anmerkung:
Obige Beschreibung ist falsch. Es handelt sich hier um ein Fanion
des Italienischen Garde-Bataillons. Auf dem Fanion sind die Buchstaben
B -für Bataillon und G -für Grenadiere aufgestickt, ln
der Mitte als Abzeichen die symbolisierte flammende Granate. Die
bergischen Lanciers haben in Rußland~ine Standarte verloren.

Afel No. 45
Standard of the Bergische Cheveau-Legrs Regiment General Deletre
Brigarde, 9th Army Corps Marshall Victor. The standard was at
Translation over the river Beresina on 15 November 1812 captured.
Annotation:
The above description is wrong. This is a fanion
The Italian Guard Battalion. On the fanion are the letters
B – for battalion and G – embroidered for grenadiers, ln
The middle as a badge the symbolized flaming grenade. The
Bergische Lanciers have lost a standard in Russia.

PoE may not be quite correct as to that description being Cleve berg. That description would be of the Italian guard units ( Grenadiers and carabiniers)


MG

marshalGreg13 Jul 2018 11:05 a.m. PST

and…
Tafel Nr. 50
Die Fahne des 2. Bergischen Infanterie-Regimentes (9. ArmeeKorps
Marshall Victor, 26. Infanterie-Division General Lagrange) .
Anmerkung:
Obige Beschreibung ist falsch. Es handelt sich hier um ein Fanion
des Italienischen Garde-Carabiniers-Bataillons. Auf dem Fanion
sind die Buchstaben B -für Bataillon und C -für Carabiniers angegeben.
Als Abzeichen ist in der Mitte das symbolisierte Jagdhorn
mit innenliegender flammender Granate abgebildet.

Plate No. 50
The flag of the 2nd Bergische Infanterie-Regiment (9th Army Corps
Marshall Victor, 26th Infantry Division General Lagrange).
Annotation:
The above description is wrong. This is a fanion
Italian Guard Carabinier Battalion. On the fanion
the letters B are given for battalion and C for carabiniers.
As a badge in the middle of the symbolized hunting horn
imaged with internal flaming grenade.

Prince of Essling13 Jul 2018 1:10 p.m. PST

Thanks marshalGreg,

The description for the 2nd Chevauleger Lancer Regt was lifted almost word for word from the Osprey MAA. However I must admit that I did have a few doubts having a copy of the Rigo plate of the Italian Guard Fanion which coincides with the description for the 2nd Regt…. another case of a book getting it wrong?

Gazzola14 Jul 2018 9:30 a.m. PST

So it appears for now that the question of if the cavalry (including the Berg lancers) standards were changed from the original red and white version, is as yet, unanswered?

Thanks again for all posts and info. Much appreciated.

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