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"European Security: Who Wants It? " Topic

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919 hits since 9 Jul 2018
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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP09 Jul 2018 10:18 p.m. PST

"The Europeans must show a commitment to NATO by increasing spending and modernizing their military forces.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is a source of strength for the United States and the nations of Europe, but Europe is endangering NATO's continued existence through its own actions. If NATO is to remain an effective mutual-assistance defense force, then all the member states must step up and demonstrate their willingness and ability to bear their portion of the burden of alliance membership. Make no mistake, it is Europe's unwillingness to do so thus far, and not the election of President Donald Trump, that has created the vacuum that invited the present reevaluation of NATO's future. When it comes to mutual security in Europe, the question that currently haunts the continent is "How much does Europe want it?"…"
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Cacique Caribe Inactive Member09 Jul 2018 11:16 p.m. PST

I have no idea anymore. Does it really sound like they are that worried about their security?


Gaz004509 Jul 2018 11:36 p.m. PST

They are lukewarm to NATO because they seek a Euro army……
The two main players, Germany and France are looking to pass on defence costs to their surrounding lesser partners….of course they also seek command of these 'partner' armies in defence of the inner core of the Euro state.
The duplication outside of NATO does appear to have a hidden agenda……keep the US out of the loop is the only apparent purpose…..but maybe the technocrats in Brussels do have other intentions……

Custor Inactive Member10 Jul 2018 4:06 a.m. PST

Could be that the Warsaw pact doesn't exist anymore. Everyone's in the same club. Who are Europe being invaded by? – insert current bogey man.

The 'burden' SHOULD be alot less. No more fingers on the button compared to the cold war. You should be happy with that.

Cacique Caribe Inactive Member10 Jul 2018 4:20 a.m. PST

And yet, as much as we seem to be disliked in some places in Europe, as a vestige of a Cold War that Europeans keep saying is long gone, I still get the sense (from a couple of travelers who visited recently) that they don't want to see us bring all our troops home.

Doesn't make sense to me. Is it that you still want to have our boys around to keep you safe from each other then (from Germany or some other* big partner of yours), instead of safe from the Russians? :)

* Or is it out of fear that the European "socialist" states might become something worse in our absence?

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP10 Jul 2018 5:31 a.m. PST

Comon guys. We all know the euros don't want us to pull outr troops out because they see them as a cash cow to be milked for everything they can get. Remember, socialism doesn't come cheap and somebody has to foot the bill for all the welfare benefits.

Lion in the Stars10 Jul 2018 5:58 a.m. PST

Could be that the Warsaw pact doesn't exist anymore. Everyone's in the same club. Who are Europe being invaded by? insert current bogey man.

Considering that Russia has invaded at least 3 separate countries since the end of the Cold War without being attacked from or by them…

The 'burden' SHOULD be alot less. No more fingers on the button compared to the cold war. You should be happy with that.

Yeah, no.

I spend 5 years with a finger on the button.

Vigilant10 Jul 2018 6:59 a.m. PST

When the Soviet Union collapsed we were all told that we didn't need large armies anymore. The increased terrorist threat supported that, so countries switched the aim of their defence spending to meet that threat. Deleted by Moderator The principal reason organisations like the one the quote is from want an increase in defence spending is because much of that spending would go to American defence contractors, the same ones who help fund these organisations. Deleted by Moderator

28mm Fanatik10 Jul 2018 8:01 a.m. PST

The problem is that Germany and France don't see a direct threat from Russia, being insulated by geography (numerous buffer states in eastern Europe Russia must go through first) and the fact that Russia simply doesn't have the ability to win a protracted war against NATO even at reduced funding levels.

It is more expedient (not to mention cheaper) for Germany and France to placate Russia by accepting its geopolitical sphere-of-influence or "near abroad" vis-a-vis Georgia and Ukraine.

Therefore, Germany and France had consistently opposed Georgia's and Ukraine's bids for NATO membership at these summits. It had nothing to do with Russian natural gas. The Baltic states are far more dependent on Russian gas than Germany and France.

The current POTUS is trying hard some say too hard to establish good relations with Russia. Notwithstanding the conspiracy theories as to why, the simple reason could be that he simply wants to "settle things" with Russia so that he can direct all our efforts at antagonizing China.

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP10 Jul 2018 8:22 a.m. PST

Maybe its you. While I've never visited Europe, none of the dozens of people I know have ever reported open hostility from anyone. This includes people I served with in the Army in the 80s.

28mm Fanatik10 Jul 2018 9:16 a.m. PST

I was on vacation in France last year. The French people aren't rude or "superior." I don't know how that impression came about. Smoking is a lot more tolerated there.

There were increased security at public touristy places due to recent terrorist incidents, to the extent that you would see green bereted soldiers with Famas rifles strolling down the streets of Paris. As much to reassure as to deter no doubt.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP10 Jul 2018 3:04 p.m. PST

German soldiers training with "broomsticks".

"The purpose of NATO is to keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down."
-Lord Ismay, first Secretary General of NATO

Ahem. Maybe it succeeded, at least with the last part.

Lion in the Stars10 Jul 2018 5:22 p.m. PST

Just to clarify, I was in the US Navy from 2000-2006, long after the 'end' of the Cold War.

@28mm: From all the people I've talked to, it's the people who live in Paris that are rather condescending.

Outside of Paris they're fine. (So, about like New Yorkers versus people elsewhere in the US)

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP11 Jul 2018 11:10 a.m. PST

Lion… you are right!…Paris … and its surroundings… (smile)


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