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"'What A Tanker' - Puma Action " Topic


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1,189 hits since 13 Jun 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Vulture13 Jun 2018 5:51 a.m. PST

Chaps

Been playing lots of games recently of the Two Fat Lardies rule set "What A Tanker!" at my local club using some of our extensive collection of 20mm scale vehicles.

We've had some really entertaining games; I can't recommend WaT highly enough for a multiplayer, low stress, easy to get into/play game.

I recently took a German armoured car the famous Sd234/2 ‘Puma'. Here's a link to some pics and stats on my Blog:

link

Kind regards to all
Ian

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2018 12:07 p.m. PST

Nice AAR!

For a vehicle that they only made 500 of the Puma appears on the gaming table a lot (although, to be fair, not as much as the Tiger I, which they made 1,350 of)

Neat how you were able to take out a Russian heavy

Thanks for sharing

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2018 12:25 p.m. PST

Nice write up Ian.

Actually they only produced 101 234/2.

Really need to get a copy of What A Tanker, looks like a lot of fun.

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2018 3:14 p.m. PST

What a Tanker is a blast, well worth investing in!
The points system only works for one to one games, my version is better link

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP14 Jun 2018 5:46 a.m. PST

Thanks Herkybird. Downloaded and saved.

Also liking the look at some of the laser cut player aides out there for them.

Vulture14 Jun 2018 7:09 a.m. PST

Herkybird

I think the points system works, provided there isn't much variation in the points per side. We've done a couple of 4 v 4 games without any problems.

Whether the vehicle points and characteristics are ‘correct' is another question… After poring through the vehicle listings I have to respectfully disagree with some of the umpires thinking. I've been working up an alternative ‘hardcore' vehicle listing. The Germans and USA are almost there, the Brits and Soviets have still be inserted. If your interested have a look at my ramblings on my Blog. They include some new characteristics as well. link

For your interest here is an extract on my musings on the German listing:
1 The Pak 40 was a more effective gun than the Kwk40 in the PIV and Stug. This is because although it was 2 calibres shorter, it had 33% more propellant.
2 StuH 42 – The 105mm L28 was a Howitzer. The penetration should be lower.
3 StuH 42 – Apart from the first 12, the remain 1000+ had exactly the same chassis as the Stug IIIG, so the armour has been upgraded.
4 Jagdpanther should have Iron Fist, exactly the same gun as the Nashorn.
5 Jagdpanther – armour too high, so has been reduced.
6 Jagdpanzer IV L70 A – Did not have a Low Profile, as the structure was mounted directly on a MkIV hull.
7 Jagdpanzer IV – Had it armour upgraded mid production run, so types now shown.
8 Panther (all Mks) – Gun Strike Value increased as too low.
8 Panther G – Has much more effective turret armour due to the redesigned mantle adding armour and removing shot-trap.
9 Tiger I – Gun less effective than a Panther, so Strike reduced.
10 Panzer II L 'Luchs' – Should be Small, and the gun downgraded as it's still only a 20mmL55.
11 Panzer IV – A is not a Slow tank.
12 Panzer IV – B-D are Fast.
13 Panzer IV – Aust J did not have a powered turret, so should be Slow Turret.
14 Panzer 38(t) – is not Fast.
15 Hetzer – should be Slow, low power to weight ratio.
16 Jagdtiger – Should be slow re-load as 2 part ammo.
17 Jagdtiger – 128mm/L55 penetration should be slightly better than a 88mmL/71.
18 Tiger II should be slow, low power to weight ratio.
19 Tiger II – two different types shown as variation in turret armour.
20 Ferdinand and Elephant were different, Elephant had more hull armour.

Kind regards
Ian

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP14 Jun 2018 12:08 p.m. PST

I agree, Vulture, there are many anomalies. I treat it with the same disregard for reality as Wings of Glory!
PS: You missed my favourite error, the Sherman Firefly being slow!

Vulture15 Jun 2018 1:16 a.m. PST

Herkybird
I'll be sorting that in the Brit listing, which I'll hopefully be working up over the next week :)

Trajanus15 Jun 2018 2:27 p.m. PST

Plenty of scope for tweaking in What a Tanker. I'm sure there's a fairly strong case for Germans getting the Aim "bonus" given to Tank Destroyers for Panthers and Tigers due to better optics.

At the moment I find ambush tactics pretty poorly rewarded due to low first time hit probability. OK they probably are on the fun side of gaming but if real tactics aren't possible it's not so good.

At the moment I find Allied tanks can reproduce out manouvering Germans but being able to punish them if they don't is not so easy.

Maybe it's my dice rolling!

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP15 Jun 2018 3:13 p.m. PST

"I treat it with the same disregard for reality as Wings of Glory!"

But how can this be so, people keep telling me how its the perfect flight simulation??? :)

Trajanus15 Jun 2018 3:56 p.m. PST

Yeah it's weird that.

I can put up with Wongs of Gliry because the plastic stands make a visual nonsense out of a dimensional one. The down side of WaT is the representation of 30 ton lumps of metal being unable to blow each other up from touching distance.

The temptation to fiddle with the rules is absolute!

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP15 Jun 2018 4:27 p.m. PST

Ah DM and Trajanus, et al, Both WofG and WaT are clearly 'Fun Games' of the (Awful desription)-'Beer and Pretzels' variety.
For a realistic reproduction of either, these games are not for you, they give a modicum of reality to produce an enjoyable game.

But of course, you know that!!!

I really feel modifying the system much would remove the simple fun you get from playing it!

Trajanus16 Jun 2018 1:19 a.m. PST

In fiddling with any rules I have a simple touchstone. Can you use the game mechanics to "improve" the game and do you still have the same game at the end of it.

Making the changes Vulture has suggested or my "optics" only vary things within the Lardies parameters. As would taking the Slow off Fireflies, which I had initially rationalised as some kind of nod toward the fact that squeezeing the 17 pounder into the turret severely limited the ability to fire on the move, making crews more deliberate on the advance.

Removing the Slow and requiring an extra Aim dice could be another way of doing it without taking the basic fun element out of things. It's still a long way from comparing ballistic tables and the slope of armour plate at any give distance isn't it?

Vulture16 Jun 2018 2:08 a.m. PST

In any rule set you are going to find something you might not quite agree with.

Rich himself said on the Lardies forum, and I quote, "Most importantly, if you disagree with a rating we have made, feel free to change it. These were not etched onto a tablet of stone by God's own hand".

My thinking is either:
a) Play the rules as is (which my group has been doing), or
b) Do the odd tweak in a game by game basis, which all players buy into, or
c) Do a serious adjustment and iron out some of the inconsistencies (in my eyes) and add some extra characteristics. It's this latter approach that has led me to work up the optional hardcore listing, adding some facts to the listing (i.e. HP per tonne) to back up the rationale used.

My thoughts on extra characteristics are:

Half-Tracked – 1 May not rotate on the spot. My only reverse over major obstacles.
Wheeled – May not rotate on the spot. My not cross major obstacles. May one Command Die to a Movement Die if starting and ending movement on a road.
Slow Reload – 1 May not fire more than once a turn.
Fast Back + 1 Can go backwards the same speed as forward.
NoCO – 1 One extra Acquisition Die required to acquire a target.
Hot Shot + 2 Gets 2 additional Strike Die.
Very Slow – 2 Cannot use more than 1 Movement in a Turn.
AT Gun – 2 Immobile, but may rotate 60 degrees using a Movement Die.


Current notes on USA adjustments are as follows:

1 The Sherman 105mm turret did not have a powered traverse fitted (until after the war ended).
2 The Sherman 105mm is a Howitzer, penetration was too high.
3 Some late war M36 and M36B1 had turret top armour kits fitted, so don't count as open-topped.
4 M36 and M36B1 had Hot Shot available.
5 M18 had Hot Shot available.
6 The Jumbos chassis was significantly overloaded and underpowered – a Slow Tank.
7 M10 &M10A1 Wolverines had Hot Shot available.
8 M10 &M10A1 Wolverines did not have a powered turret traverse and so are 'Slow Turret'.
9 Pershing is not a fast tank, it is fact Slow.

Interested to hear other players thoughts :) Just doing this for a bit of fun :)

Kind regards to all
Ian

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP17 Jun 2018 3:32 p.m. PST

I always thought 1 man turreted tanks should start with 5 rather than 6 command dice.
Possibly 1-2 man turrets should not be able to fire more than once an activation.

I definitely think AT guns and armoured cars with guns should be introduced into the game too!

Dexter Ward20 Jun 2018 3:29 a.m. PST

German 8-wheeled armoured cars had a separate driving position in the rear (and all 8 wheels were steered), so should be able to move backwards as fast as forwards.

Vulture23 Jun 2018 3:06 a.m. PST

Dexter
It's not just about the separate driving position, it had the same number of reverse gears (6) as it did forward.
Yes I agree about going the same speed forwards as backwards :)

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