"Stop playing with unpainted figures " Topic

"…What I'd like to talk about today is the tendency of people to play with unpainted figures. What with the spate of pictures from Adepticon shown on various places on the internet I noticed a disturbing amount of unpainted figures and even unfinished or place holder terrain.

I'll just come out and say it, this is completely anathema to Oldhammer. Let me repeat. PLAYING OLDHAMMER WITH UNPAINTED FIGURES IS JUST FLAT OUT WRONG!…"
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Amicalement
Armand

I've actually never seen anyone game with unpainted figures.

However, having said that, *I* would prefer to talk about the tendency of some people who want to tell others they're gaming " wrongly*.

Imposing your standards of others is just….wrong!

Unpainted figures, not on my table!

Why? Should we not play Monopoly or Imperial Assault until all the playing pieces are painted also? That's ridiculous. Its a game!

That said I prefer my miniatures painted accurately and my terrain very realistic and to hell with unsightly markers/counters (or God forbid) plastic caps on my figures. But that doesn't mean how I play is correct and everyone else is wrong. Its all a matter of preference. Some people play for the experience and the rules are enough, I say good for them. Sometimes my pocketbook wishes I was more inclined to play that way.

Happy Gaming! (however you play)

Ignore the above advice (the advice above tigerjim's). If you don't want to paint your figures, don't paint them. Or single-colour spray paint them. Don't even take on any self-pressure that wargaming with painted models is "better" or something to aspire to. You know if you want to/ can paint your figures or not. Just enjoy your gaming and have fun.

The only thing you "shouldn't" do is take it too personally if someone else doesn't want to play with/against you, if having fully painted stuff is important to their gaming.

It would ruin their resaleability if you painted them and then how would you trade them in for the next flavor of the day wargame choice. Bartertown would die

hmm maybe it would be better if you painted them afterall

SWMBO blames me for her aversion to playing board games that have miniatures if they are not painted first.

Go, me!

That said, you game how you game. I'll participate or not on my own criteria. But those are my criteria for participation, and have no place telling you how to game.

And the cool thing is playing board games with unpainted minis does not bother me. In fact, I have offered to paint other's minis for their board games.

In decades of gaming and attending Wargame conventions I have yet to see a single game played with any unpainted figures. I think that "playing with unpainted figures" is one of those urban myths.

Did anybody actually read the post? While I did not save or screen capture the photos I saw evidence of a big "Oldhammer tournament" that had unpainted armies and paper cut in funny shapes to represent terrain at Adepticon. I have played with unfinished terrain and figures and it is a slippery slope to never completing any projects. I think you need to make the distinction between board game pieces and table top miniatures. My primary issue was some one co opting the term "Oldhammer" and then apparently completely ignoring anything that actually has to do with Oldhammer. What you choose to do in your own home/ group is your business. But if I spend the time to lovingly craft a force it chaps my ass to have to go up against some one who creates a power list and has unpainted figures. Just trying out a brand new game, you get a pass. 12 years old and new to the hobby, you get a pass. Been gaming for 30+ years and can't be arsed to show up with a finished force? I think you need to suffer some form of penalty in game terms if you are a serial offender. I also think that if you are going to "represent" something at a con you should damn well do it to the best of your ability. But apparently that's imposing my views. So be it.

I don't play games with unpainted figures but having stated that one of the most fun convention games I played was an early 40K game where 1/2 the Ork figures were primed or bare metal. The company at the table made the game a real hoot.

A friend reminded me of this post.

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Why would you make the Ghost of HG Wells cry?

@seanswgcorner

"…you should damn well do it to the best of your ability."

That is an unreasonable standard. Sometimes you just finish things knowing they could be better. We can't make every figure our personal masterpiece.

Good or reasonable effort, 'table top standard', 'carefully done' are more than adequate in my opinion.

I'm not saying that real life doesn't happen. I think honoring your commitment to host a game takes precedence, but couldn't painted figures have been substituted for the unpainted ones? Again it's about one offs versus a pattern and not calling people out for blowing off an important aspect of the hobby.

I think you need to suffer some form of penalty in game terms if you are a serial offender.

I do remember something like this being proposed ages ago in one of the wargaming magazines. The basic premise was that the level of painting determined the quality of the troops. So really good paint jobs – guard / elite; standard paint jobs = regular/experience, basic paint job = raw, unpainted = levy. So if you turned up with unpainted Space Marine models, clearly they would be the newly-raised power-armoured troops of some local despot with all the gear but no idea; conversely some really well-painted Imperial Guardsmen are battle-hardened veterans of a recent conflict, approaching Space Marines in skill (but lacking the boltguns and power armour). And so on. That might work for you.

I'm with Der Alte Fritz. I've gamed miniatures since 1975 and have yet to see anyone use unpainted figures in a game.

Hi my name is Daniel and I played with unpainted figures. Always as a tween and again a few months back. We knew if we didn't use the primed only figures we wouldn't get the game in nor have a chance at the rules for a few more months.

I feel so much better now.

Once, many years ago I saw a fantasy game with some unpainted figures.
Otherwise I'm with DAF and KSmyth, and I've also been gaming since 1974.

"Imposing" is not the objetive… is a mere opinión….

Valid as any other wargamer one….

Amicalement
Armand

I should just say that in my original post, I expressed myself badly – I meant the advice that "PLAYING OLDHAMMER WITH UNPAINTED FIGURES IS JUST FLAT OUT WRONG!…", I didn't mean ochoin's or VCarter's…

It's hard to read tone. Often, exaggerated absolutes are offered as a humorous statement, not as a serious condemnation. That appears to be the case here. I take it as such.

No unpainted figures and no masking tape for roads!

@ Fusilier Dan

Well done. My belief is war gamers should be individualists. You live up to this ideal.

@ Whirlwind. No harm done.

Sadly, I've seen all too many unpainted lead on the tables. Those players in my club know my feelings about that. In fact, just played "What A Tanker" last weekend, and as we were rummaging about looking for various tanks in our various collections, someone offered some German and American stuff.

Unpainted.

Really? I just looked at them, and they remembered that this old cranky grogard never allows unpainted figures on his table.

I disagree with those that say it's just a game. If it was just for the sake of a game, we'd be playing with cardboard. Why bother buying expensive lead and plastic if you're not going to bother painting it?

One local store had a great idea. They offer gaming tables, and lots of scenery and terrain. If you have painted – not primed, but at least three colours blocked in – you can use all the tables and terrain.

If not, you get the "unpainted" table. It's bare wood, and for terrain they have a variety of old pizza and shoeboxes, empty popcans and cardboard. If you don't care about your figures, why should you care about terrain?

Starting out, and that was all 3 or 4 of us we had unpainted figures, but after a short time it was all figures must be painted.

Sorry to be a "get off my lawn" old grogard as well, but playing with unpainted figures isn't table top wargaming imho. Yeah I know everyone can play with their toys how they want and who's to say how yada yada etc., but that's my take.

In fact I was part of a club that allowed unpainted figures and that basically became the norm and while I didn't like it I allowed myself to become lazy and go along with the program so I could game. However, after years of trying to change the policy I gave up and made my own hobby room with the rule figures must be painted. I looked around on forums and found some like minded folks to come over for some gaming and haven't looked back. I occasionally go back to the old club because personally they were always nice and still friends, but always bring my own armies with to insure everything will be painted.

Christopher

In my area, fielding unpainted armies is fairly normal for those engaged in many of the currently popular fantasy/scifi games that are played at tournaments. Those tournaments which require painted figures, usually a minimum of 3 colours, are significantly less well attended than those without painting requirements. When I made inquiries I was told that it was too much hassle to paint figures for a game system that might be replaced by the next new, shiny game. This doesn't happen with historicals as we are playing a period and not a ruleset. If you are a WWII gamer, for example and don't like or tire of FOW,, there are a ton of different rules available to use with your models. You can change the rules and still play the period. That is not the case with many of the fantasy and scifi games. The rules and the models are inextricably linked and if you tire of the rules, there are not a lot of other options for using the figures.

Alcibiades – that is an interesting observation. Last June we were at a Fantasy convention in Kamloops B.C. with over 150 fantasy players. Our Historical group was invited to put on a few games to "show the other side".
There were many very well painted miniatures, some not so much, but all painted.

"To the best of your ability" might not be the best way to express the sentiment. I don't mean they all have to be "insert painting trophy title here" standard, I just mean that you should attempt to field figures that look like you care about their appearance. We all spend varying amounts of time on different figures. My issue as a painter is that I probably spend way too much time on rank and file and not enough on characters/officers.

I think that you guys who have been gaming since the 70's are probably historical gamers and therefore really don't see unpainted figures. I wish it were a myth.

To the point of the new hotness in game system, that is the issue. Sure, your excited about a new game, a certain company makes a big box with a lot of plastic figures for relatively little money. You can be excused for wanting to get them on the table in a hurry once or twice. The problem is once people start regularly showing upwith unpainted stuff and can't be bothered to paint because the rules might change? I think in regards to Oldhammer, which my post was specifically about, we are playing the "period" specifically Rogue Trader Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd edition set in the Old World or something quite like it. Several of us use house rules or borrow from other rules systems to spice up what mighty be considered stodgy game play from the late 80's early 90's.

I think Axebreaker's comment shows what I'm talking about. It is a slippery slope to not painting at all. With my 1/72 plastics I fell into that trap. I rushed to get in games and ended up only finishing one army.

Lastly, sorry this is a book, I don't advocate bonuses/penalties for level of painting. I don't want to discourage people from painting, I want to encourage, albeit with a stick. I am not a great painter. I consider myself workmanlike. When I travel to a convention I only bring painted stuff.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble. It's coming in the midst of breakfast and people leaving for work and school.

Do you prefer to wargame against a wargamer with horrible painted figures or not painted at all?

If you have to choose….

Amicalement
Armand

I have been gaming with miniatures since about 1980. While I have never fielded any unpainted figs the VAST majority of my opponents have done so. Many of them have also been gaming that long. They just hate painting, so avoid it like the plague.

I have also seen unbuilt minis fielded, and once just the bases without anything on them at all.

To each his own.

Do you prefer to wargame against a wargamer with horrible painted figures or not painted at all?

Well … all my figures are pretty horribly painted, so …

I want to encourage, albeit with a stick.

The official US Navy policy on carrot or stick is, "Eat this carrot or I will beat you with this stick."

Do you prefer to wargame against a wargamer with horrible painted figures or not painted at all?

Don't know if horrible is the correct term but already planning when I get to the end of my goal I am going to start getting to to those 'horrible ' figures.

As I have said in other posts, this has long been an issue with gamers. Back in 1978, I had a friend who primed his Napoleonic army and fielded them primed. When a unit did especially good, he would give them battle honors by adding a color to the unit. It was funny that he had a primed only Grenadier unit and a totally painted land where unit. Lol

The vast majority of my mostly plastic figures are unpainted. I am just happy to get the vehicles painted and the airplanes.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Fine, then let's turn the tables.

If you show up at my table with a beautifully painted army, you have to give me three quotes from Sun Tzu, and have to be able to explain a simple military tactical concept such as "Hammer and Anvil." If you can't, take your art projects somewhere else and let me play against a GAMER.

See how arrogant that sounds? Why is it NOT arrogant when we turn that around and admonish people who want to play a game, because of their art skills?

Since the article invoked Oldhammer, I'd say time and progress themselves have contributed greatly. People who are ace painters can call themselves "Wargamers" if they have a nicely painted force, but roll a die maybe, what, twice a year? Why can't they just call themselves "warpainters"?

Honestly, though, what's happened is that a wedge got forced between hobbyists who like gaming, and those who like painting. The ones who just want to play a game can now just shrug their shoulders at the massive painting showcase that modern tabletop is (and is fine for it being that), sneer at it, and play a video game. Having to spend hours in prep to play a game, for whatever reason, is a lot less attractive now, when we have beautiful and challenging games on the computer, than it was when the best looking video game looked like the toddler put legos together and pushed them around the screen. In the meantime, the internet has made it easier to focus more on the visual aspect of the hobby than the actual gaming of it – it's a lot easier and faster many times to show off the latest pictures of awesome paint jobs than to play a game and spend time writing an understandable battle report.

There is a massive intimidation factor for new players having to spend hours, days, weeks, just PREPARING to play a game. Some will do it and get praised. Others will realize that they just wanted to play a game, and turn on the computer, and never darken a flocked and painted gaming table with their shadows again.

Of course, the result is the only people who remain in Wargaming are paint enthusiasts, and we somehow still call them "wargamers" if they can maybe squeeze in a game in the next, oh, two years, but gosh, look how nice their armies look on the shelf. These are warpainters.

And if this sounds nasty, and you're itching to reply… realize that this is the same bile felt by many who just wanted to enjoy a game, but resented the gatekeeping of those who, and let's just be freakin' honest about this, sound more like pitchmen for the latest GW paint product than they sound like someone who can make a fine narrative out of the rolls of the dice and turns of the tape measure.

I love some well-painted minis, but geez, the gatekeeping they create can border on puzzling. If you WANT to drive people away from the tabletop, when some gentle nudging and time might have done wonders for them while they absorbed some gameplay, then don't bother telling me what a great gamer you are. Just call yourself a warpainter. You know it's true.

And yeah, I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but rest assured your personal tables are safe from the likes of me.

Pontiflax,
I agree we stand together. I an a warGAMER. I have now started my own 3D printed figures. The detail is MINIMAL BY DESIGN. They just need aquick spray and they are ready to play. Detailed models look daft charactertures. I agree perhaps we should stop playing Warpainters as they are often very poor players. Also too often these guys are not even realisticaly painted, most would be terty and have bits of worn kit in tatters. Lets see how the OP does when he has to take the flack instead of giving it.

Pessonally I play with whoever is interested painted or not.

Weighing in again…

I think, perhaps, there needs to be some recognition or definition of what is meant by "painting."

Although I think figures should be "painted", otherwise why not use wooden blocks or cardboard counters, the "quality" or style of the painting should not be a consideration. Some folks paint better than others due either to innate ability or practice. Some folks like one style of painting better than another.

I have played in a WWI game where the plastic troops were mounted on pennies, given a dark wash, and the penny base was treated with a white glue and sand mixture and then given a quick wash. Peferectly acceptable and actually looked rather appealing.

I participated in a game where we did it all in black and white. Yep, everything troops-equipment-terrain had been primed gray and then treated with dark washes and highlights. It was a group attempt at recreating the old B&W movies. Damn cool looking tabletop.

I also played in a game where the metal figures were based and the figures-bases were painted red or blue with a sepia wash. Terrain was very high-quality, full-color stuff. Everybody knew which side was which and we had a heck of a good Red on Blue game.

When I started I had Matchbox figures mounted on pennies and the bases were simply painted green. That did fine for about a year but then I wanted to put-on games that had an even better look and feel. So I guess I grew into something more.

If I attend a convention, I expect games to be well presented… no unpainted figures, no masking tape roads, no raw styrofoam terrain. If I'm playing at a friend's or acquaintance's place, then whatever they have they have. It is always more about game play and social interaction than the quality of the paint jobs when its just the guys getting together for a game.

Two cents worth.

Not as way back as 1974, but an unpainted army won ( let's say it was Late Roman) a national competition, forcing a rule amendment the following year: armies must be painted.
The following year, the same army was entered ( as say Aztecs) duly spray painted. Won the comp.
Not an urban myth.
Back in the days when ancients comps used to fill a basketball stadium with tables.

I have seen unpainted figures, white primed figures, white primed figures given an ink wash, partially assembled figures, and even lumps of plasticine proxying for figures.

Our figures are all painted. Some are painted much better than others. Some are on the list to be phased out. Some are fully based, some need work. But we are lucky enough to have a lot of figures now.

Ifs plan a game and we don't have "x figure" then we either sort it out – buy, paint, base, or go without.

We are not kids anymore

But. If kids ever wanted to join in, or if I wanted to encourage kids, the. I would cope. I would encourage them to try at least a colour primer coat to get started. But raw enthusiasm would probably count more for me than display quality painting

Personaly at a UK convention I think it is important not to have all the terrain done by Warpainters. There should be well presented games with terrain that normal Wargamers can achieve without spending more time painting than playing. This makes the hobby more accessible. And reflects the wide range of wargame interests.

I'm fine playing against unpainted minis at local stores, but tournaments and shows should have fully painted requirements.

I'm also of the opinion that playing with unpainted minis is fine as long as there's visible progress each time we play. If we play one weekend, then the next, and I see that you've got a squad done up, that's great!

I'm currently helping to run a Konflikt 47 slow grow league at a local shop. The idea is that at the end of each two week period (over 8 weeks), players will end up with a fully painted 1250 point platoon to play in a tournament with.

I participated in a game where we did it all in black and white.

My black and white figures were some of the hardest ones to paint for me.

UshCha, I wholeheartedly agree. Whilst there is – of course – a need for wargames presented to the public to be aesthetically pleasing, many of the games at shows demand a high degree of skill in painting/modelling and a considerable investment in time that would be out of the reach of new (and most?) wargamers.
These games simply don't reflect what ordinary wargamers are doing, and present an image of the hobby that risks deterring people who feel they will never be able to achieve those standards.

These games simply don't reflect what ordinary wargamers are doing, and present an image of the hobby that risks deterring people who feel they will never be able to achieve those standards.

Do we really believe that potential wargamers are that much more fragile than other hobbists?

If you have ever watched any sports on television, would you never get out on the pitch (field, court, etc.). The same goes for trains, (artistic) painting, video gaming … whatever. Basically, in any endeavour, people who have been doing it for a while will outshine n00bs for the near term.

etotheipi, Its not that simple. I am at least in principal am a bit of a model railway enthusiast. At that level attention to the artistic side is the key. I personaly have no asperations to EVER own or do modeling to that degree in war gameing. I want to play, simple basic painting, colouring, if you like is ample. If the expedient arrives I will play with unpainted figures if neccessary to achieve my aim which is the GAME.

Hence excessive modelling standards while nice must be understood as NOT NECCCESSERY or even an aspriration of the hobby. You NEED not aspire to more than even the basics, its committment to the GAME that counts. We get folk who are worried about the time it takes to paint figures, it important to show and tell that it can be kept to a very basic level without feeing second class.

I haven't played with unpainted figures myself since I started playing 28mm (which I stopped a long time ago) – we tend not even to do so when roleplaying, but to be fair, we have enough painted guff now we don't really need to. But a fair whack of what I play or played with with needs some level of assembling first (basing for 15mm, starships/battlemech/28/30mm GW-kit-combined sfi-fi Undead), so it's already requiring time in.

That said, it is more simply a case of after the first few years, having so much stuff that there is no NEED for using unpainted figures; anything unpainted can wait until it's done, because it's not necessary.

And as far as aspiring wargamers and the neccessity of painting go… You don't even always need your *own* army, if folk at your club have enough to go around and are happy and eager to share. My mates have maybe one starfleet each, but that doesn't mean they use it ever time we play – when I write the scenarios, I can pick from the majorty of the selection of the forty-one starfleets we have between us, since have thirty-four of them are mine (not counting ersatz duplicates).

I personaly have no asperations to EVER

Hence excessive modelling standards while nice must be understood as NOT NECCCESSERY or even an aspriration of the hobby.

First, nobody does excessive modeling. They do the modeling and painting that they think is appropriate based on their level of interest in that type of thing. So, if a specific level of detail is not your aspiration, that doesn't exclude it from being part of the hobby.

The idea that "the hobby" has a single set of aspirations is a fallacy of composition.

The statement I quoted said that achievement of high painting standard by individuals within the hobby creates a discouragement barrier to entry for new people. While that is likely true in some cases, my argument was that in many other human endeavours, the high end achievement of some in the domain do not act as a large scale deterrent, and there is no reason to assume that it does so in wargaming.

This whole line of argument is centered around the fool's choice fallacy that painting and playing necessarily compete for hobby time.