"TAG - Organised Criminal Gangs." Topic

As horrific as the events in London were, lots of innocent people have been blown up in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia etc.
The only difference is in the level of technology used: nice depleted uranium ordnance dropped from shiny planes or 'cool' black stealth aircraft. I'm sure those victims view the US and other Nato participants as terrorists, and they ended up just as maimed/dead as the low-tech terrorists victims. The USA and Britain have declared war on terrorist groups, and as such can expect to be attacked by the same people using their favoured tactics. If Al-Quaeda or whoever had an air-force. I'm sure they'd use it. Thank God they don't.

Only an accident of timing kept my young cousin from being blown up at Aldgate. At all other times she would have been there at that time and therefore could have easily been caught up in that bomb.

IT would have been a decent thing to do to delay this by a few days.

BTW I don't happen to game troops that I find morally distasteful, my choice, but this is on the order of something different.

I think I'll put the kibosh on an order for TAG Mongols I was about to put in, they can go stuff themselves

Quite bad taste in the timing…

Do they come with extra representative Flash?

Tardis
I don't think bad taste jokes help matters.

Ok, lets get two things clear:

One: Wargamers universally play military actions with soldiers on soldiers. We do not usually game 'total war' where civilians are legitimate targets, nor do most countries have such policies. To compare the NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia or the military actions in Afghanistan or Iraq to the deliberate targeting of non hostiles (as suggested by Monophagos) is sheer folly.

Two: Nobody has yet explained what use a suicide bomber would be in a game. They have no place on the tabletop. You would not have a suicide bomber on the table with a bunch of his terrorist mates out to cause mahem. It simply doesn't happen like that.

There is very sad situations in both London and Iraq with the current bombings. TAG should have thought much mre clearly before their release.

Guy

Dogs of War moderns ruleset, page 75. "Al Qaeda Fire Team". "Every second model w/Jihad [skill] in a fire team wears the equivalent of 1/4 lb of C4 w/deadman trigger". These army lists are for use in Afghanistan – a "soldier vs soldier" theatre of war. Since the rules were printed in 2003, the use of an explosive vest in a gaming context is obviously not a new thing. I haven't found any threads on TMP complaining about the inclusion of such equipment when these rules were printed. I totally respect the argument about the timing – but Pete has put forward his reasons for the release.

Oddly enough in Wargames Illustrated 208 there is a Vietnam scenario called "Where's Charlie" in which civilians play a very prominent role. Also see WI 212 for other uses of civilians in Vietnam scenarios. As WI is pretty mainstream I would argue that it is an accepted part of many modern games.

HOKAY, MONTY, i do not PLAY RVN WAR games, but, i do know that car bombs, bicycle bombs, and kids armed with grenades were a part of the horror GIs and others confronted upon ocassion.

so were short rounds, off target mortar, artillery, and air strikes, fratricide, fraggings, massacre of civvies (by both sides), mistreatment of POWs, torture, mutilation of the dead, drugs, rape, race riots, khaki mafia, corruption , government over thrown, rmpant stupidity, career officers and senior NCOs who would not stand up for what was right, ticket punching, ring thumping, false recom – mendations for awards and decorations, heroism, cowardice, two faced politi -cians, hollywood traitors, Stateside bombing, draft dodgers, large scale riots, political grand standing, calling the ALL of US troops red handed murderers, dopers, psychos, glorifying the Communists, etc.

does this mean these all of these things should be done on the tabletop?

i_do_not_think_so!

i do not wargame post WW II, and would not touch any of the genocides or religious nutters wars, tribal wars,wars of liberation, police actions, interventions, international humanitarian missions, any terrorist activities, or wot ever, for large sums of cash money . . . .

but i know what kind of evil BLEEP is OUT THERE.

soldiers on the battlefield taking their chances against religious nutters or others who are flying, driving, boating, pedaling, or walking bombs is not the same as IRA or other terrorist bombers blowing up innocent civvies,police stations, night clubs, or military dependents, etc, for GOD's sake!

the whole concept of a lead suicide bomber for use in tableop gaming is in bad taste.

if, if, YOU MUST game with these, any unarmed civvie figure will work, just like any armed combatant figure will work!

these types do not walk with big signs proclaiming "HUMAN BOMB HERE!".

if nothing else, i guess this bit has reminded me why i do not wargame post WW II, and was put off gaming 20th century wars_ period_ for so many years.

some folks want to do things on the tabletop that leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

DAWGIE

"Two: Nobody has yet explained what use a suicide bomber would be in a game. They have no place on the tabletop."

I thought I already did, but I'll recap it for you.

Look at the figure. The bomb vest is clearly visible. If that guy's aim was to blow people up, he'd keep his coat buttoned.

He _wants_ people to see the vest. It is there for _intimidation_.

This is a real tactic employed by hostage takers and hijackers. "Sour grapes" with TNT, if you will.

If you are into playing "hostage rescue at the embassy" kind of games, then yes I do believe this figure has tabletop uses.

Got to say I will go one step further with this.

I think that TAG are mad to do this and deserve no praise at all. I am open to criticism for stating this as I run a company which has some small overlap with TAG in that we both make modern vehicles. But I do not believe that negates my right to make a comment on this.

I am also one half of the team which runs Partizan.

I feel so strongly about this that I will state quite clearly that I would not allow TAG nor any company selling their stuff to attend Partizan so long as they are producing this figure. It is not a matter of timing. This figure would be unacceptable at any time.

It is of course rather academic as currently the company that carries TAG at shows is not at Partizan. They have however been trying to get in for some time and I can safely say they will now be removed from the waiting list for as long as they stock TAG material.

Many of you who are apologists for TAG would consider this unfair and would place ulterior motives oin this action. Quite frankly I don't care. I have spent years trying to promote the hobby and get wargaming accepted by the wider public and if this ever did get into the press we would be crucified. As such TAG should be utterly condemned for what they have done. It is on a par with the earlier debate about modelling concentration camps.

Tricks (AKA Richard Tyndall Sloppy Jalopy and Partizan)

Justin as I have already said to you on another forum this is something I find completely unacceptable in our hobby. It is only ever going to cause us grief. I agree we should not go running to the press but inevitabley someone is going to find out about this and I cannot honestly begin to defend the hobby from what would in my opinion be justified criticism.

This is a personal moral position and I will not allow the events I am involved with to be associated with something I consider to be damaging and in extremely poor taste.

Your argument comparing the Romans (or any other military) with suicide bombers is simply silly. Yes war is about killing people but that is, in my opinion, a far cry from suicide bombers targetting civilians.

In the end it is a personal decision and I am extremely content with mine. It is up to others to deal with their own consciences about this.

Tricks

Did you know GZG also have a suicide bomber :-

"[GZG-SGI-09C] Islamic suicide bomber – running, festooned with explosives"

It's been around for some time, but should the company be asked to withdraw it?
I know it's supposed to be sci-fi but it's still a suicide bomber and this time it is definitely referred to as Islamic.

GW was making penal suicide 40k Imperial Army bombers in the late eighties and early nineties. GZG has made them for a while (quite accurately modeled as Muslim psychos).

And guess what, people were getting killed by belt or vest wearing suicide bombers the entire time these figures have been out. Now I realize those folks were primarily Israelis, and thus beneath the contempt of some/most Europeans, but now that someone in the UK has been bombed the figures are in bad taste?

Give me a break.

A bunch of Islamic nuts have been trying to kill all of us for thirty or so years. I still buy the models. If I want to, as no one is forcing me to do so. Are suicide bomber models more offensive that German SS, Soviet commisars, Japanese in China? Why? Suicide bombers have killed fewer people, certainly fewer Brits.

This weak over-sensitivity about minor things like this is sympomatic of why these cave-dwelling religio-primitives might actually win in the end. Because we are so weak and decadent that we cannot seperate what is important from what is not.

Devil Dog Design have a suicide bomber in their Al-Queda range

Hi Richard

Thank you for your interjection.
I'm glad to see that you are setting yourself up as the guardian of moral taste.
I don't know who appointed you, but I'm glad that they did, we all need to be lead by those, like you off such great wisdom.
I sure that your knee-jerk reaction is absolutely correct and that we will never be admitted to your show. I hope that it shows to all reading, the arbitrary and cliquey way which you organise your event.
It's rough on us that we can't attend an event that we already have no wish to attend, but if you say we're not on the guest list, then we're not coming in.
I'm sure that those who run The Hobby Box may not feel this way about this restraint of trade.
I still fail to see the connection between these miniatures and last weeks events in London, but if you tell me it's distasteful to make a miniature that looks nothing like those involved, then so be it…
We have had no complaints at all.

I trust that Partizan goes from strength to strength; I personaly come to 3 events a year, as a paying customer.
I hope that your range of vehicles flourish the 1980's seem like such an interesting period, without the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan after all, there would be no al-Qaeda.

pete

So no traders carrying TAG, GZG or DDD at Partizan now?

Hey Probert, is it significant that the nationality of the victims has been introduced into the argument? I thought the dead were the important thing, not their origin. If you want an argument about chauvinism, start a new thread.

Gaz,

Just significant to show the selected outrage.

I will copy over what I said on the wargamesclubs newsgroup about this. It basically covers my position.

There are two separate points here.

In the first I think that TAG are being
pratts and showing a distinct lack of both taste and common sense in
producing a figure specifically designed to kill civilians. Yes we wargame
but most of us try to stick with conflicts between military organisations
and do not choose to game scenarios which involve the direct targetting of
civilians. This is akin (and I say this absolutely) to wargaming the SS
rounding up jews to ship to a concentration camp. So for that reason I
personally think that TAG have lost the plot. This is not PC in any way, nor
does it deny that war is nasty. It is simply saying that there are most
definately boundaries in what we do and this is beyond the pale.

If it were simply my own opinion then I would say that it would probably not
effect my atitude to their presence at the show. There are a number of
companies that I have a particular dislike for for one reason or another
(TAG until now not being amongst them) but I have not let that affect
whether or not they attend the shows.

But the second point is that involving the actual practical aspects of
running a wargames show. Since I and my colleagues are ultimately
responsible for the show and all that involves, we do not have your option
Justin of simply ignoring the press or public opinion. If, for example. our
local paper picked up on this it is entirely conceivable that they would
make something of it. Not only would that make the position of our club very
difficult in the community, it would also mean that we could lose our venue
which is a council office. As I said, I could not in all conscience, find a
way to defend the hobby against what I would consider to be justified
criticism which would make it almost impossible to argue against whatever
attacks we found ourselves under.

What I do is called tabletop wargaming. It involves models representing
armed combatants from any and all periods of history. It does not involve
recreating the murder of unarmed people (whether soldiers or civilians). We
all know that war is nasty.. in fact I have always defended the hobby by
stating that you will probably find more people against war in wargaming
than in the general population. We at least educate ourselves about the
actions and consequences of warfare. But there are certain places our hobby
should not go. This is one of them.

Tricks

So was that yes or no about DDD and GZG?
I think if you want to make your point you must include a blanket ban on all companies selling suicide bombers or it makes the whole thing pointless. People could still go to Partizan and buy themselves a suicide bomber from another company!

"producing a figure specifically designed to kill civilians"
we only make the miniature, you put the interpretation that it will be used on civilians.

" military organisations
and do not choose to game scenarios which involve the direct targetting(sic) of
civilians."
I was always going after other peoples camps in DBA, nothing demoralised the opponent quicker.

"There are a number of
companies that I have a particular dislike for for one reason or another"
Clique link
Arbitrary link

"We at least educate ourselves about the
actions and consequences of warfare."
It's the least we can do.

Thankfully this is not a question I now have to answer. Since we do not intend running the Fantasy and Sci Fi show next year GZG will probably not be attending Partizan. Nor does anyone I am aware of carry DDD.

If you are asking the more general point then my position is clear and I will retate it. If something a manufacturer does threatens the hobby or the shows then they are not welcome.

Personally I find it staggering that anyone can defend this stance by TAG. Whilst there are shades of grey in everything, this particular release in the current climate can do nothing but harm the image of the hobby. Yes it is a matter of personal taste whether one would game these scenarios but anyone who cannot see the damage this can do must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

Tricks

Pete,

if you are going to have this argument on here then at least be open and honest with the quotes you choose to snip. The full sentance was

"There are a number of
companies that I have a particular dislike for for one reason or another
(TAG until now not being amongst them) but I have not let that affect
whether or not they attend the shows."

I would have thought the same applied to everyone. So how exactly is that either a clique or arbitrary.

If you have nothing constructive to say about the main point of the argument I suppose you have to resort to side issues but it does you no credit at all.

You obviously don't consider this a problem which is of course your right. I do and so take the action and make the comments I consider appropriate.

Tricks

where is the problem!

we cant go to an event that we don't want to attend, because we don't sell any miniatures at are anything like the bombers that attacked London.
I understand completely that you have taken this decision in a none arbitrary way.

Loopy

Some of these people are so full of themselves that they are way over the top. Let's play our scenarios as we wish and let these folks contemplate their navels….

You read what you want to Pete so I will spell this out very simply.

I object to what you are producing (in this particular figure, otherwise I like your stuff and if you remember at Salute we were even chatting about how our ranges complemented each other)

I think what you are doing in this instance is not only very distasteful but is harmful to the hobby.

No you do not attend Partizan but the trader who carries your stuff has been trying to get in for some time and did briefly attend a couple of shows.

Since I believe that this release would be harmful in the extreme if it were to become known to what we might refer to as the 'wrong people' I am not willing to risk the stuff being sold at our show. I understand that at least one other show organiser is also intending making some representations on this before his next event.

This is not arbitrary but clearly thought out. Unlike your decision to release the figure in the first place.

Yes, for once we agree, I do think you are loopy.

Tricks

When I saw the figure, I thought "crazy assed Russian mobster" or something similar. Even if it were a obviously
"Moslem" terrorist, it would have many legitimate game uses.
Then there are the people who just like to paint stuff and they don't even have to have "legitimate" gaming reasons.

There are several versions of Osama in miniature floating around out there and I have heard no outcries over that.(nor should there have been)

My Osama Bin Laden and Taliban warband won best painted unit at the Colours show at Newbury last year. No complaints that I had entered a mass-murdering fanatic who was involved in the deaths of many thousands of people in the worst terrorist attack ever seen. I just had a few people come up to me and say – "Nice paint job – he even looks like Bin Laden". Why did I paint this unit? I liked the figures and it made an interesting change. Do I think that I may have somehow corrupted the hobby with this entry? Considering I was beaten in the overall standings by a chap who had converted a unit of GW Space Marines with the heads of fictional serial killers (Freddy Kruger etc.) I doubt it…

No I didn't I said "Nasty paint job, it should be binned." I didn't know it was B.L., I thought it was the Red Shadow . . .

:O(

"Since I believe that this release would be harmful in the extreme if it were to become known to what we might refer to as the 'wrong people' I am not willing to risk the stuff being sold at our show."

can you explain that one again for me, Richard,please.
Who are the "wrong people?

SO, WHILE I CONTEMPLATE MY NAVEL, YOU ARE GONNA PLAY WITH YOURSELF?

play your games; have your fun, but, if, some fine day when you are playing a game involving suicide bombers targeting civvies, in public place, and a large, elderly and PO'ed gent tears a large verbal chunk off your butt in a public, you will KNOW that we have met in person. . . .

i do not consider the Brit dead anymore dead than the Israeli dead, or the Iraqui dead, or the American dead killed by suicide bombers.

they are ALL DEAD, murdered, by Islamic fanatics WHO are morally corrupt.

sooo, oh GREAT WISE ONE, why did you interject NATIONALITY into this event?

40K:RT IG penitents wearing explosive vests and bomb collars, are from a sci fi setting, not REAL LIFE.

GZG ISLAMIC SOLDIER SUICIDE BOMBERS are also from sci fi setting and not REAL LIFE.

the battlefield targets of both of these are (a) military , (b) are wearing recognizable miltary uniforms, (c) come into the same military combatant category as WW II military suicide bombers (pilots, soldiers, seamen, etc) and (d) are seperated from OUR REAL WORLD by centuries or thousands of centuries, (e) used in non existant sci fi universes . . . . NOT THE REAL BLEEPING WORLD FOR GOD'S SAKE!

talk about bogus logic to fuel your points of view!

look at TAG's suicide bomber? does he look like a uniformed soldier?

no, he looks like a damned low life terrorist! nothing more or less.

if, if, i was running a wargames convention for a store OR a club, now days, and some one trotted out scenario to use this despicable suicide bomber lead against tabletop "targets ", i would not allow the game to be run!

now OBL lead as a painting contest entry, as far as i am concerned, would be just as tastless as any prominent NAZI lead, or a WILLIAM CALLEY lead .

as a judge i would ask my self WHY was this lead entered? and it would not get my vote. . .

NOTE: i was gifted with an OBL lead. it is still in my junk box, nekkid as only bare metal an be nekkid . . .

DAWGIE, becoming more and more disgusted with folks making noises of approval and/or defending TAG.

Stop being obtuse Pete, you know who the wrong people are. In this case they are the local press, the national press and anyone who considers that what you are doing is morally wrong. In this case I suspect that would include about 90% of the population.

Do you really want to see the hobby dragged through the dirt because you were too stupid to realise the massive offence you would cause with this release.

If people honestly don't believe there is anything wrong with the figure then I wonder why there was concern when Villageidiot mentioned letting the press know? Surely in that case you have nothing to worry about and nor does the hobby.

Of course anyone with a brain can see the damage that this could do to the hobby. Shame that doesn't include TAG and their supporters.

Tricks

This is for Baddawg, following on from his last post, but I'd be interested in other peoples views too. I'd like to see peoples honest opinions rather than let the whole issue slide into more arguments and automatic gainsaying.

Ok just of the top of my head here are a few mainstream films featuring terrorists with bombs trying to blow up civilians.

Die Hard
Die Hard 2
Die Hard With a Vengeance
Blown Away
Patriot Games
Speed

I'd also list similar themed Computer games, but there are so many and I can't think of any names off hand.

Ok none of them feature suicide bombers but they do feature terrorists trying to blow up civilians which is just as bad if not worse as the have more than one chance to do so.

So my questions to you are

Do you think these films/computer games are acceptable?
Do you think it is permissible to use elements from these films/computer games in wargames?
Do you think there should a different level of tolerance to these themes for wargames as opposed to films/Computers games?

Besides, in places like Iraq, suicide bombers target military buildings.
I think before 9/11, some defense services did not consider terrorism in a warzone terrorism, but warfare by unequal means. That is, if you cant afford an airplane to bomb the crap out of a military base, instead use an indoctrinated fanatic in a car to do the same.

I really don't see myself playing such scenarios but I don't think it's any different than other modern urban warfare.
Or popular movies and computer games

It's disgusting, confronting and very close to real life, as it's happening at this moment all around us. But that IS modern gaming.

"a few mainstream films featuring terrorists with bombs trying to blow up civilians" as you said none feature suicide bombers.

On a question of tact, decency, and timing. The spiderman film was delayed in its release because it featured the World Trade centre towers in the background IIRC. These were edited out before release, which probably cost a fortune.

The bomber as part of a hostage set with swat guys could easily be used in a game… not much fun until the sniper gets a clear head shot as no one could shoot at him or approach without the bomb going off and killing all the innocents.

I object to the timing, lack of respect and tact shown by TAG of the release of this figure. Perhaps on the 11th September they are going to release a pack of aircraft hijackers… just as justified in wargaming terms as a suicide bomber.

I would like to comment here if I may on a point of accuracy. Many folks are earnestly stating here that suicide bombers (in this case Islamic jihadists) are used only against civilians. This is not the case in reality.

Even a casual reading of histories of both Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom will show numerous operations where both vehicluar and person borne suicide bombs were used against Coalition forces- sometimes in concert with other tactics, sometimes singularly- and both during the operational and security phases of both operations.

I agree poor timing by TAG but ignoring this distasteful element of insurgency warfare is not possible if you are attempting to simulate fourth generation warfare, particularly in Iraq today.

regards, The Upright Man

WELL, i do not own any video games with suicide bombers in them.

as for the movies, i make no excuses for Hollweird's choices of bad guys or bad guy motivations or actions.

as for suicied bombers vs military targets, yes this is a real fact of battlefield life and death; the most well known suicide bombers of all time were the Japanese kami- kaze and baka bomb pilots.

soldiers deliberating giving up their lives in order to knock out bunkers, tanks, and etc, with explosive charges is not new either.

BADDAWG6 does not like the way TAG handled this lead release or promotion.

BADDAWG6 does not own a DDD suicide bomber, and will not own one.

BADDAWG6 has no argument with soldiers of any nationality wearing CBR gear. only bone i had to pick with TAG's US soldiers wearing CBR gear was not including webbing on the outside of the CBR suits. hato add my own.

WELL, i do not own any video games with suicide bombers in them.

correction. i recently bought SERIOUS SAM: THE NEXT ENCOUNTER (first SERIOUS SAM game i have ever bought) and there are UNDEAD, headless, soldiers who are walking bombs in it.

as for the movies, i make no excuses for Hollweird's choices of bad guys or bad guy motivations or actions.

as for suicied bombers vs military targets, yes this is a real fact of battlefield life and death; the most well known suicide bombers of all time were the Japanese kami- kaze and baka bomb pilots.

soldiers deliberating giving up their lives in order to knock out bunkers, tanks, and etc, with explosive charges is not new either.

BADDAWG6 does not like the way TAG handled this lead release or promotion.

BADDAWG6 does not own a DDD suicide bomber, and will not own one.

BADDAWG6 has no argument with soldiers of any nationality wearing CBR gear. only bone i had to pick with TAG's US soldiers wearing CBR gear was not including webbing on the outside of the CBR suits. had to add my own.

like i said at the beginning i like most TAG stuff, including the "organized criminals". the bozos with balaclavas are fine with me too; can be used as well armed criminals, etc, who are hiding their faces from surveillance cameras and the media.

in fact, when i saw these, i immediately thought they would be useful for the tree hugger nutters in "HANGAR THIRTEEN" or militia nutters out to make some fast money, etc.

the hostages (which i do not own) would be useful for other scenarios besides terrorist based scenarios.

the suicide bomber is another whole enchilada, a rotten one at that, as far as i am concerned.

regarding the subject of "toys" and the 9-11 attack, there has already been an uproar here over some candy made in Mexico that included a crude toy airplane crashing into one of the WTC buildings.

brain dead merchants have had to withdraw this crap from their shelves all over the USA and rightly so.

DAWGIE

i see alot of people on these boards in general who place a great deal of importance on realism, be it scale, unit type, uniform colour, whatever.

yet actively will not use certain types of miniatures (suicide bombers,ss,-insert potentially inapropriate mini you feel like-) for moral reasons.

isnt this hypocritical as well.

just my own 2c, and maybe a little bit of playing devils advocate.

open your minds.

(i personally dont put any importance in historical accuracy in my games, i prefer to focus on the use of tactics. like a very visual chess game)

All,
Some of you will know me as Iain, from the Hobbybox.

I felt that I needed to reply to some of the comments here as I felt very threatened by many of the comments made and want to give people 'our version' of events.

So…
The first we, at Hobbybox, knew of this figure was at Devizes the other weekend. Various people came up and commented to us on it.
At this stage we did not even have the figure in stock as it was so new.
On the Saturday night I looked at the TAG website and saw the figure. It is part of the Organised Criminal Gangs issue and is a 'free' figure.
The issues raised around 'making a quick buck' from this do no stack up, for one simple reason. 'Free' figures are only given out when the customer buys a certain amount of packs. The customer does not have to buy the packs, or accept the free figure.

We do not currently display 'free' figures as part of our display, so if someone at a show wants one, then they either have to ask specifically or it will be offered if they make the appropriate number of purchases.

We will always offer an alternative 'freebie' from the modern ranges should they feel unhappy about 'Crazy Ivan'.

I would also like to say to Richard, and some other show organisers who we have heard are unhappy about this, that we understand your feelings. Most of us will know someone affected by the tragedy in London, either directly or through someone we know.

Because of the depth of feeling on this I will make a promise. If any show organiser feels strongly enough about the issue of 'suicide bombers', hostages or anything of that nature, then The Hobbybox will be happy to enter in discussion with them about the figures they have a problem with, and if necessary we will omit those figures from our show portfolio if we attend your show.

Thank you,
Iain.

Hi folks

I had been inclined to let this discussion die naturally since everyone seems clear on their position.s But Iain contacted me and asked me to comment on here in reply to his posting.

I won't go back over the arguments again as I am sure everyone knows where they stand and why.

All I will say is that we certainly won't let this disagreement affect where we stand with Hobby Box in regard to the shows. They are not currently attending but we will continue to bear that in mind. That position is however based on their statement that they will not carry the particular figure at their shows. I have already explained my reasoning for this and hope that Iain understands where we stand. Once again this is a position that has been adopted by everyone involved with running Partizan.

Tricks

Just a small point i would like to raise, about 15 years ago i was collecting 20mm Vietnam figures made by Platoon 20 who i believe are still in production…. They already have a Viet Cong suicide bomber figure laden down with satchel charges all set to self destruct. I have never heard or read any comments about this figure, or is this acceptable?? I can see no difference between this figure and the more recent one made by TAG.

All,
I just wanted to say thank you to Richard and the guys at Partisan for making the position clear as regards their show.

Whilst Hobbybox is not currently attending Partisan, we hope to do so in the future, and we have not been banned from attending Partisan or any other shows because of this.

Many thanks,
Iain.

I think there is a perfectly clear distinction between playing wargames and reinacting atrocities or acts of terrorism.

I have a game of 'The Great Escape' the POW camp
I do not have a game of 'Auschwitz' the concentration camp

Both are historical fact and important aspects of the 2nd world war.
One is morally acceptable to play as a game,
the other is absolutely not acceptable on any level.

The most important distinction is probably the involvement and slaughter of the innocent and defenseless. The suicide bomber of the type dipicted by TAG, resides in this area of conflict.

The Vietnamese used suicide bombers to good effect in taking out US bunkers and H.Q. positions – but these solidiers are akin to the Japanese Kamikazi – this I would consider an acceptable miniature. A miniature depicting US troops raping a Vietnamese woman – I would consider unacceptable.

I would have to disagree….TAGS figure bears no resemblance to the bombers that are currently targeting innocent civilians in London. These bombers are dressed to fit in, i'm sure if someone dressed and armed themselves the same as TAGS figure, and walked along the street, identifying the 'bomber' wouldn't pose a problem for the security forces. Other 20mm WW2 figure ranges already produce 'hanging' and execution vignettes, and i have seen these miniatures at numerous Partizan shows in the past. Surely the passage of time shouldn't mean that these figures are acceptable? I have no doubt in my mind that if the same vignettes had been made from a more modern period such as Bosnia or Iraq, we would have the same outrage as TAGS figure has caused. If this figure is used in the correct scenario i can see no reason why it should pose a moral problem to anyone.

I don't recall saying that the TAG miniature resembles the London Bombers.
I also didn't make reference to other miniatures – hanging or otherwise – we are not discussing those here.
That argument is akin to drug users stating that nicotine is more adictive – they miss the point entirely that both are bad.

While he in no way resembles the London bombers , he does resemble the kind of bomber seen in places like Iraq and Palestine. The bombs strapped hidden indicate a character posing as a non combatant. These are the guys killing people – civillians – in market places and such like.

I challenge you to outline a credible combat gaming scenario that would involve this miniature.

Ebob, you can't have tunnel vision and limit this argument around this figure…if people are stupid enough to use this figure in the context you describe, they deserve everything they get. Yes he does resemble the kind of fanatic that is causing civilian casualties in Iraq, but as you already describe, suicide bombers target military personnel as well. What is the difference between using this figure in that context or a similar figure from a different conflict such as the suicide bomber from the Vietnam war with the same mission. You could quite easily use this figure attempting to find its way to a base HQ or similar. Looking at pictures of this figure i was under the immpression that he was holding a pistol, i might be wrong, so he is not a non combatant as you say.
The reason i mention the figures in the above post was to point out that different people fing different things offensive. I personnally can see a limited use for the TAG figure in the right context, however, i can see no use whatsoever for a figure 'hanging' from a lamp post..i challange you to find a credible use for that figure instead. Maybe that company should be banned from partizan as well.

Context dear boy, context.

A prison camp guard, good.
A death camp guard, bad.

Same mini could be used for both and when it's left Ebob's hands he has no idea what context the mini will be used.
Would he withdraw from sale his camp guards if he found them being used for concentration camp guards in a game or diorama, no, i think not.

Same with our bomber, if the gamer wants to walk him up to a military check-point in a game, fine.
If a gamer wants to do other things with him then, what can i do.

I, like Ebob and Tricks, make a living peddling miniature death, it's up to the gamer/collector what context they choose to use our miniatures.

Thanks for your input Ebob.

Too true. Artizan sculpt General Custer and the 7th cavalry for their Old West range. As a gamer you have two choices. Massacre Indian civilians or re-create a skirmish with some braves. Given that I was brought up on "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" I opt for the latter – but it sure doesn't stop people doing what they like with their figures. Should Custer be banned. I think not – even though he was a piece of murdering scum and a bad arrogant general.

I guess you're right… I hadn't thought of that, and I suppose my sculpting puppets could be used as Jews.

"I challenge you to outline a credible combat gaming scenario that would involve this miniature."

Hijacked airliner takedown by SAS or some other Counter-terrorism unit?

Bank Robbery scenario with bad guy trying to intimidate the tellers?