"TAG - Organised Criminal Gangs." Topic

TAG – The Assault Group (28mm)

Hi.

We at TAG have had this week's new release planned for about six months and had been asked to do "terrorists" right from the launch of TAG almost three years ago. We had avoided doing so; thinking that we would sooner make the "Armies" of fighting forces, not fanatical individuals, plus what were these "terrorist" going to look like. So after years of not doing so, the chance came to make generic "bad-guys" to fight our SWATs and Special forces.
We have taken our lead from the turbulence in the former Soviet Union and Russian successor states (including the Balkans).
These Terrorist and Organised criminal gangs were moulded and ready to release this week.

Then, some fanatic blows up the Under-Ground, and for a few moments the world stands still.

I wondered to myself if it was wise to release these miniatures, taste, decency and respect were words used around the TAG HQ.
The thing that changed my mind, was, seeing the response of the people of London, going about there business as best they could and the emergency services working to carefully prepared plans.
If these people could persevere under such extreme circumstances, then the best we could do was get on with what we do and not be cowered by terror.

Having said that, our thoughts go out to all those that are suffering today as a result of yesterdays barbarism

Thanks for reading my angst ridden waffle, now on with the advert.

Six new packs of miniatures, with four miniatures in each pack costing £4.95 GBP with shipping included free world wide.
The packs are as follows;
Organised Criminal Gangs
OCG-001 East European "mafia" with AK-74
OCG-002 East European "mafia" with AKSU-74
OCG-003 East European "mafia" with PKM & SVD
OCG-004 East European "Terrorists" in Balaclavas with AK-74
OCG-005 East European "Terrorists" in Balaclavas with AKSU-74
OCG-006 East European "Terrorists" in Balaclavas with PKM & SVD

These are the pictures of them
picture
picture
picture
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picture
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Or they are listed on our shopping cart here
link
The complete TAG Ultra-Modern range can be seen pictured at this link
Its 140 pictures so takes awhile to open if you have a slow connection, but it does show everything we have in the period (500 minis)

TAG products are available at UK Shows and Conventions through The Hobby Box
thehobbybox.biz
Our whole line of miniatures are stocked in the USA through Little Wars of Texas
littlewars.net
All trade enquires are directed to North Star Trade Distribution here in the UK.
link

Next week Japanese World War II
Cheers pete

Great figures, will we see any middle eastern types in this line, suitable for Iraq etc?

yep.

"If these people could persevere under such extreme circumstances, then the best we could do was get on with what we do and not be cowered by terror."

Well said sir.

And it looks like you will be getting yet more of my hard(ly) earned cash.

So can I get the "First Organized Criminal Gangs Offer" with the extra figure from Little Wars, or must I order that online?

Its just that little wars is local, so buying there helps you (I'm buying your figures) and keeps a local shop in business too.

Good looking stuff ya got there. I was looking for some figs to play a "Counter-Strike" type game a month or so ago, but couldn't find just what I was looking for.

The balaclava-wearing fellows would make perfect "T"'s to go with some "CT"'s I've been looking at.

FINALLY someone releases two things I've been wanting for a long time. Russian MVD and bad guys. The only people that will be offended by this release and it's timing is the people that want to be offended by something.

Just because we play war games doesn't mean that we think war is a game. Rational people can make the distinction. I personally spent time in Eastern Europe with the US Army and two members of my unit died there. I am not offended, no more than I am that there are bad guys in video games.

Keep em coming.

Ed G.

Well said Pete!

Class act guys! You should be commended.
Ed

Well said, and some awesome minis as well. Those baclava guys look like a must have for anyone interested in modern mini gaming, imho. Keep it up.

James

This is going to sound stupid, kind of… but if the current circumstances mean that you can't sell terrorist miniatures, doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?

Kind of?

In a small, insignificant, and kind of stupid way?

Cpt. Arexu,

Yes, Little Wars offers the free figure with all the army/gang offers from TAG.

Thanks for the business!

littlewars.net

Whoa — those are NICE! Well done — all of the TAG stuff is great.

Nick

I was going to keep quiet because so many of you support this action, but, and this is not going to be pleasant!!!

I have no problem with the generic criminals, I find you sense of timing a bit off with the terrorist releases, and perhaps a wait of a week or so would have been more understanding, especially as over 50 people died just over 24 hours ago.

There is no excuse for the last figure in the list of links, just what the bloody hell do you think you are playing at, for s sake its a ***g suicide bomber, how bloody insensitive can you get, whats next on your release schedule, rucksack bombs, how about mangled civilians?

I don;t care what any of you lot think, that last figure cannot be justified, in any way shape or form, especially after the events on Thursday

I spent a frantic day on Thursday trying to contact my older brother who works at Aldgate, and commutes on the tube every day,luckily he was on an earlier train, but he has friends who were badly hurt in the explosion.

Perhaps I should send him a link to your latest range, he can show the suicide bomber picture to his friends and ask thier opinion.

its a sad sad day for me, I never thought any company could stoop that low to turn a profit.

shame on you TAG

I've got quite a few TAG figures and the ranges certainly improve with each release. It's inevitable that somebody's going to produce 'terrorist' figures and we do need baddies for urban warfare (fictional or actual replays). The new figures are nice and I'm tempted by some, but I became increasingly disturbed as the ski masks appeared as I scolled thorugh the photos and then I spotted the suicide bomber.

Well, sorry Pete, that's well over the line for me. Forget the London bombings, but look at what's happening in Iraq every day and what's been taking place in other areas of the Middle East and the Balkans. Maybe I'm hypocritical in that the 'sanitised' figures who look more like militia are O.K., and maybe even those in ski masks, but the last figue is just bloody sick. We've already had one cretin on here wanting to build model gas chambers, but I think you've pipped him for the crass trophy.

"The thing that changed my mind, was, seeing the response of the people of London, going about there business as best they could and the emergency services working to carefully prepared plans.
If these people could persevere under such extreme circumstances, then the best we could do was get on with what we do and not be cowered by terror." This is absolute . It's more like insensitivity to flog a few more figures with a gimmick bonus. You're selling TOYS for Christ's sake, drop the facade. I'd have more respect if you came clean and said you were ed if you were going to write off the production costs and wanted to recoup the money; at least that's believeable.

Nicely designed figures – yes. A moral statement against the oppression of terrorism – my arse.

I may well buy some of the range, so would it be possible to pre-order a couple of paedophiles, a rapist and a pack of body parts?

O.K. Boss, Dawghouse me now if you want, but I'll show my arse on the town hall steps before I'll retract.

If I understand the news, there were no suicide bombers involved in the London bombings so I don't understand the complaint. But even if I did we could make a case against a lot of miniatures if we work at it hard enough.

By the way I'm going to buy the whole deal.

Please yourself Rdfraf, I'll buy some of the range as well, but I'll not offer a prize for guessing where I'd shove the figure of the suicide bomber.

There may have been no suicide bombers in the london bombings, but they're active almost every day in Iraq – don't Iraqi's count then?

Yes, reductio ad absurdum, we could make a case against most of the aspects of the hobby, but some are more palletable and others plain tasteless. I'm certainly no prigg, but even I've got my limits.

Guys let us not be hypocrits. How many of us have SS units in our gaming collections and we are happy to use those on a table inspite of the Mass murder that they inflicted.

Also there are two manufactures one in 20mm and the other in 28mm who already produce Al-Queda figures namely Liberation Miniatures and Devil Dog Design no one has crucified them for their ranges.

We cannot ignore the reality of the world Bad taste or not, how amny of you own collection of figures of WWII JAPS and Vietcong both who used suicide bombers.

Perhaps releasing that specific figure may have been ill timed but hey let us not be that naive to think there would not have been some of the wargames fraternity that would have been up in arms if it had been released in a years time.

If you don`t want the figure you can decide to buy some of the collection not the whole or ask Pete not to include it.

You Pays your money and takes your choice.

Like many of you my brother was in London yesterday using the tube.

I will not let terrorism rule my life for if I do they will have won

O.K., my last words on the subject.

The debate revolves around ONE figure – the suicide bomber

Liberation Miniatures? Don't do 20mil, so don't know.

Devil Dog? Don't like the style, so don't look at their website.

SS units? Er, no haven't got any. Do 15mil WW2, but no SS at all. Not ethics, just haven't got any.

As I've already said, I'll be getting some of the other packs – they suit my purpose. When Mongrel bring out their Lebanese range, I'll be getting some of those too.

My argument against the suicide bomber figure is based upon what it represents, that it's a gimmick, that it's not necessary for a game (you could use any figure!)and that Pete's justification is IMHO absolute rubbish. You can add to this that, as a wargames figure, the suicidist is pretty poor and doesn't hold a candle to the rest of the range.

Finally, the chest beating about people not letting terrorism rule their lives as justification for buying toys is crackers – I'm pretty sure the elimination of wargaming isn't on Al Q's list of objectives. A view that one doesn't see anything morally wrong with buying a figure of a suicide bomber is far more honest and logical.

O.K. ladies, argue to your collective hearts' content.

:O)

DUH!

i like TAG stuff, own a bunch of it. the leads just keep getting better and better.

the generic criminals are absolutely fine by me. i will buy some of them.

BUT . . .

O ARE Y'ALL making a little lead suicide bomber for?

WHY?

if anyone in OUT THERE felt the burning desire to field a lead suicide bomber, lord knows there are many un-armed civvie types that could be used as such!

this is a completely tasteless casting, in my opinion, and should be withdrawn from production NOW!

what next TAG? emergency response folks tssing body bits into rubberized zipper bags? fireman hosing down the area to remove the blood stains and tinys bits of flesh? body parts? rabbis and mullahs searching the area for blown apart flesh to give it a proper burial? funeral processions? leads of grief stricken family members?

my GOD . . . .

POWS being beaten to death? POWS being killed and mutilated?

concentation cam prisoners, or piles of starved corpses?

little lead firing squads with little lead soldiers or civvies tied to posts or kneeling on the ground?

little lead gang rapes, S&M toys, child molesters, famous serial killers and mass murderers of the world?

i know we play games; i also know there are things that are not DONE on tabletops with miniatures BECAUSE they are too tasteless or too offensive to the majority of gamers, and non gamers.

can you just visualize the reaction of a non wargamer (or one hell of lot of wargamers) when they see grown men and children tossing dice to see happens when the suicide bomber (s) go into action?

i see folks using lead corpses in their games, as well as lead docs struggling to save wounded soldiers in the field.

i understand the "reasons" some folks do this.

i have docs and gunslinger docs in my 20th century, and 21st century forces, as well as in my sci fi forces.

i might even spring for stretcher parties with WIA, or a doc treating wounded to indicate a field medical post.

but i do not have little lead corpses or little lead body parts, nor do i plan on getting any.

my GOD . . .

TAG, y'all sure did something unbelievable . . .

suicide bombers . . .

and then to write that "stiff upper lip spiel to go along with your release . . .

bad mistake, guys!

apologize to all y'all have offended and correct this mistake ASAP!

DAWGIE

SS UNITS?

man, hell will freeze over before y'all will ever find me fielding SS units for my WW II GERMANS!

i have by choice, plain ole HEER, LUFTWAFFE fieldjaegers supported by an FT-17 tankette , even a few KREIGSMARINE who are part of an adhoc unit.

i own one MKIII,one MKIV, one MKV PANTHER, and one M4 SHERMAN for my HEER tanks, not a single damned TIGER.and i have two STGIIIs as well. nothing bigger in the sult gun class.

i am upset with the damned SUICIDE BOMBER lead, not the rest of the line!

DAWGIE

I fail to see a difference between a suicide bomber and any other terrorist who is willing to die for his/ her beliefs in an attempt to cause civilian casualties.

If you're going to game anti-terrorist actions then a suicide bomber makes a useful character. I don't have an issue with it.

If someone's going to run a game where the good guys shoot it out with terrorists and blow the bejeezus out of them, it's probably useful to have figures of the terrorists.

Hate to say Baddawg but yes I've used suicide bombers in my 20mm OIF/OEF games just as I have used VBIEDs, civilians and casualty figures. And I strongly believe that there is nothing morally wrong in doing so.

Each to his own I believe. For the periods I game, such elements are a necessary part of any vaguely accurate representation of the conflict.

Maybe the release is poorly timed but I have no issue with the miniature in question. I've lived in London for eight years up until 2004 and have many, many close friends directly and indirectly effected by the incidents of July 7. I can however divorce those tragic real world events from a tabletop military simulation.

regards, The Upright Man

As already stated by a couple of other posters on this thread, the range is not the issue I don't particularily like the trend for games featuring terrorists, but appreciate that other gamers do.
My problem is with the complete lack of respect shown by TAG for the friends and families of the 50 plus people that died on Thursday, OK no suicide bombers where involved as far as we know, this has not yet been confirmed by the British security services. By all means release the range, but only a day or so after the attacks, no , thats just not ***g respectful at all.

The figure in question appears to the freebie you get if you buy the whole release, which makes it even worse, buy the lot and you will be rewarded!!!
Same way the suicide bomber gets his reward in the garden of Allah

I'm seriously considering sending a link to this thread to the Sun newspaper, they have a readership of 4 million plus in the UK, so lets see what the great British public think, whilst we can divorce our miniature situations from the real events, I think you will find that the public at large will take an altogether different view!!!

Gamers are already seen as sad individuals, fully grown men who still want to play with toy soldiers, and to feature ganmes that represent something as horrific as suicide bombers, dead civillians and the like will do nothing to promote the hobby in a favourable light.

Each to his own, and those of you who find nothing wrong with the figure, enjoy your games, and you can find lots of suitable bus models to blow up, by searching for diecast.

I think enough has been said by all of us……..We are wargamers we all choose to utilise the tabletop as our hobby….But none of us lose sight of the pain and destruction caused by war or acts of terrorism.

I know I speak for all on here when I send our prayers and thoughts to all those who lost loved ones as well as those injured along with those relatives still trying to make contact with their friends and family.

Villageidiot - As you're one of the designers for Sloppy Jalopy/Mongrel, you wouldn't be trying to stir up trouble in a sockpuppet capacity would you?

Richard

No, he wouldn't. Not our very own Village Idiot. I know him far too well (and look what it did to me <GRIN>) and he's too straightforward for that.

I really like TAG's stuff, and have a bunch of their figures, but I am distinctly uneasy about this latest development. I appreciate that some wargamers do play gmes involving criminal gangs and terrorists – I do a little modern skirmishing myself but I haven't used any civilian 'forces' unless you include Mujahideen in that category.

What bothers me, is that someone 'normal' (i.e. a non-wargamer) may well get to learn of this somehow, and before we know it, the hobby is plastered all over the tabloids. I kid you not, I believe the backlash would be far, far worse than the 'D&D is Satanic' one which hit roleplaying games.

So not only do I believe that it's in poor taste, and particularly to time the release to come so soon after the dreadful events this week (asking for trouble if you ask me), I believe it poses a real threat to the whole future of the hobby.

The story behind the figures is that they were designed so I could play a table top version of the computer game "Counter-Strike". They were made some time ago and the fact that Pete only got around to releasing them this week is coincidence.

Woodwose, you are incorrect. Village Idiot is his own man and is well known for speaking his OWN mind. He is no sock puppet.

This is not an issue of TAG versus Monrgel or <insert your mini company here>. In fact, since the more recent releases of TAG have been more reasonably sized, I've liked them better (WW2 Japanese for example).

Let's not get sidetraced; The issue is the timing of the release.

I personally think it is in bad taste given the current circumstances. It is now highly likely that at least one of the bombs in London was a suicide bomber.

I can think of no use for a suicide bomber model. There is NO time I recall suicide bombers used in conjuction with more conventional terrorist attacks. From a gaming point of view, they are pointless (congratuations, you just killed 12 innocents..). From a moral point of view, particularly with the current events, they are unforgiveable.

TAG, London has no choice. Life will return to normal and the British spirit will endure. Your release was ill timed at best.

Guy

"Villageidiot – As you're one of the designers for Sloppy Jalopy/Mongrel, you wouldn't be trying to stir up trouble in a sockpuppet capacity would you?"

Richard, get your facts right before you start dragging my company into this please. Villageidiot is NOT a Mongrel designer and in fact does not design figures at all.

He does indeed design vehicles for Sloppy Jalopy and very nice they are too. Mongrel does not need sock puppets and as TAG do not do the same period as me, they are not the "opposition" you suggest.

Let's keep the record straight here. They do Ultra Modern, I do the 1980's.

Frank

Village Idiot

Love the quote "Each to his own, and those of you who find nothing wrong with the figure, enjoy your games, and you can find lots of suitable bus models to blow up, by searching for diecast".

I said I was gaming OIF/OEF which are recent and current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. Typical hyperbole from yourself as is your comments regarding the Sun. I remember you came out with similar indignant fervour over some recent hostage miniatures TAG released. I really think you should just steer clear of the Ultra Modern period totally if you find these facets so uncomfortable.

Guy- VBIEDs (car bombs) and PBIEDS (suicide bombers) are a tragic fact of life in Iraq today and form part of the unique flavour of the conflict- rightly or wrongly, they have been used in conjunction with more conventional tactics on many, many occasions. Thus why I include their use on the tabletop. My rules on their use were influenced by input from several US servicemen with recent operational time in both theatres mentioned.

Once again I believe this is down to individual choice. I agree the release was very ill timed considering the events of 7 July. Personally, I would have not released the miniature in question at this time but I would release it. This is I assume a commercial decision by TAG. I just don't think we need the hyperbole injected into what are normally reasonably intelligent conversations here at TMP.

regards, The Upright Man

Can't wait for the Japs

WOODWOSE, THE VILLAGE IDIOT IS NOT A SOCK PUPPET!

LORD, he is a living breathing independently thinking soul who has locked horns with me in the past over things we have not agreed on.

i do not know O your erroneously dragging SLOPPY JALOPPY or MONGREL MINIATURES into the discussion has to do with the tasteless TAG suicide bomber release.

the rest of the figure line is fine, fills a useful niche for a lot of gamers.so do the hostage figures released earlier (i do not have any hostage figures, though).

i know IDJIT, he is my friend.
i also know some of the other folks who have protested this suicide bomber, as well as some of the folks who have welcomed it. i still consider them to be my friends, but, i do not agree with their choice in regards to this particular lead.

and, LOL, if YOU think i am a sock puppet, y'all are suffering from a serious bit of bad info!

DAWGIE

Are you lot on the same ing planet as me!!!

They are still pulling bodies from the wreckage at Kings Cross station, there are people wandering about with photos of missing friends and family, people are lying critically injured in hospital, and the people who lost their loved ones have not even buried the bodies, and said goodbye.

TAG could have ing waited, was it so urgent to release this range at this time.

Woodwose, what the !! sock puppeting, you , you really believe I would stoop as low as you to make a quick buck!! I made no mention of my capacity as a model maker for Sloppy Jalopy, and has Frank has already stated, my figure sculpting skills are nowhere near good enough to make commercial figures.

Upright Man, play what you ing want, I mantain my right to make whatever comments I feel necessary, and promoting games featuring hostages and terrorists will do the hobby absolutely no favours whatsoever.
I agree with you comments about releasing the figure of the bomber, i don't like it very much, but can see who certain parties would find it useful in a gaming sense, but releasing something like this, so close to the tragic events just stinks.
BTW I do have alot of ultramodern figures, I won't say what companies i buy them from, as I have already been accused of sock-puppeting, none of them are terrorists but I do have Serb,Bosnians and Chechen fighters, plus assorted Taliban and Russian mafia types, along with the forces of good (NATO)!!!

Eventually these figures will find their way onto the tabletops at conventions/shows and into the pages of assorted gaming magazines, the public will get to see them being used, and will form their own conclusions.

I promote the hobby where I can, i've been to village halls and put on games, given modelling and painting tips to all and sundry, spoken about history at schools using games to demonstrate., and have put on games at shows across the country. do all i can to promote the hobby in a positive light, but figures like the bomber will just give the public the wrong idea, the idea that we just glorify slaughter, and use the suffering of innocent people for our own sick gratification.

I'm still in two minds about moving this into the public domain, I think the best course of action is for TAG to withdraw the release until all the bodies have been recovered, and the unfortunate people who lost their lives have been buried, its the only thing they could do in the cirsumstances.

Don't hijackers and hostage takers sometimes use suicide rigs to deter would-be rescuers?

Ergo, valid gaming use.

@ CaptWillard

Which will be on sale next Friday 15th July 2005.

Unless a couple of lost Japanese veteran, who don't know that World War Two is over, launch a banzai assault on the White House.
picture

OK.
Two complaints.
Taste and Timing.

The taste issue seems to boil-down to Suicide Bombers are (distasteful), fantastics with assault rifle aren't.

Sorry i don't understand.

The timing of the release has been planned for weeks and the minis were commissioned back in the winter of last year.
Last week we released 25 new British Moderns, to the approval of most here. No-one said it was distasteful, while we still have men serving overseas in hard-times.

What i object to is a kind of war-gaming NIMBY-ism,
wars in previous times, were some-kind of golden period where bullets didn't kill and main, All wars are horrible, World war two was horrible (suicide attack is nothing new). TAG
make Aztecs and Mongols, thousands were slaughtered, no one blinks an eye.
Wars are fine, but Not In My Back Yard, is a very strange attitude.

(NIMBY wordspy.com/words/NIMBY.asp)

@ Woodwose
The reason these miniatures were made is because, customers ask for them.

pete

Villageidiot – Everyone has there own opinions but you seem to be trying to twist this into something it is not. These are Eastern Block armed Criminals/Mafia/Terrorists. In your last statement "Woodwose, what the !! sock puppeting, you , you really believe I would stoop as low as you to make a quick buck!!" you imply that I have rushed off and made these to cash in on the London bombing.
That is low and I resent that!
As I said before it is chance that these happened to be slated for release this week and those that have been following TAG's forums will have seen the greens sometime ago.
I note that you also imply the use of blackmail "I'm still in two minds about moving this into the public domain, I think the best course of action is for TAG to withdraw the release until all the bodies have been recovered, and the unfortunate people who lost their lives have been buried, its the only thing they could do in the cirsumstances."
Which is also rather low and not very professional for someone in the miniatures business.
I think you are getting this out of all proportion and it would be best to let everyone calm down a bit.

I think the reasoning is that a guy with explosives strapped to himself as a highly visible suicide bomber, only a few days after what happened in London is "unfortunate", and may have been better delayed for a week or two, until UK TV channels were not still full of the news, and the message boards no longer had people posting condolences.

A suicide bomber would in theory hide his explosives until the last minute (who would let him get near enough otherwise) so visible explosives would not be necessary, just a shifty figure.

If the bomber figure were moved to a hostage takers pack, and an alternative freebie figure were offered.. say female terrorist… I don't think many of the objectors would stongly object to it.

Just my thoughts

Bungle

"@ Woodwose
The reason these miniatures were made is because, customers ask for them."

@ Pete

The reason I let you "persude" me to make them is I wanted a set for my own "counter strike" style game :-)

LOOK, from my perspective, i think the timing on releasing these toys was a tad off.

i have no argument with the generic toys, as these can be used by a lot of modern, and sci fi gamers.

i have no argument with leads depicting patrol cops, SWAT cops, street thugs, gangers, high tech criminal gangs, modern soldiers, modern 3rd through 7th world combatants, either. in fact i own a bunch of these leads made by many different companies.

i even own some NVA and MAIN – FORCE/VC i was gifted as well as RVN WAR Americans and Aussies. i was able to relax and enjoy painting these, but i have not been up to using them in an actual RVN WAR game for reasons of my own.

for the same reasons, i have not used the other post WW II toys to game recent wars, but lord they get a work out in sci fi and hollyweird types of games.

i have even written modern and RVN WAR scenarios for other folks to play with, but except for some off the beaten track skirmishes between COLD WAR forces in Europe, as well as poachers, or narco-terrorists and the good guys, i have avoided playing the other modern ones.

i have no argument with most folks who play wargames, from any era.

i have an argument with folks who want to do distasteful and dubious things on the table top with leads, dice, rules and etc.

slaughtering prisoners, torturing prisoners, genocide, rape, torture, mutilation, and suicide bombers are a bit too much for my tastes in gaming.

and a think the public at large wuld be a bit turned off by these type of game events, too, when they come into the open at stores and conventions .

like THE IDJIT said, there are folks trying to recover corpses, ID corpses, located missing loved ones and friends, in London (not to mention Iraque) due to terrorist bombings.

releasing the suicide bomber NOW is just not in good taste, old bean.

DAWGIE

Shock horror, a sculptor with an agenda of his own *smile*.

So it is okay to withdraw the figures for a few weeks until the London bodies are recovered and all of the victims are buried. But in a few weeks they will probably be pulling Iraqis out of bomb wreckage and burying them. Please explain the difference.
Every figure we wargame with represents people who have died, often in great pain and terrified. How is it morally right to use those figures and not others. For what it is worth I won't be buying the suicide bomber. Personally I think it is in bad taste but that is my personal judgement. To me wargames are a game, no more morally wrong then watching or reading about violence. Something almost everybody does. The Sun would have a field day with this, it is perfect tabloid fodder. The irony is that this is the paper that published the famous 'GOTCHA' headline when a thousand or so Argentinians died on the Belgrano. A fine, upstanding moral newspaper. You are closer and more emotionally involved in the events in London then most of us. We are shocked and upset by the bombings but to have a member of your family involved is another level entirely.
I agree that it would be a good idea for TAG to delay or withdraw the figure but threatening to get the mad dogs of the tabloid press involved is not going to help anyone.

Mhoram

"So it is okay to withdraw the figures for a few weeks until the London bodies are recovered and all of the victims are buried. But in a few weeks they will probably be pulling Iraqis out of bomb wreckage and burying them. Please explain the difference. "

the difference is that is is all over our TV screens and people are still lying in hospital in our own capital city and the timing is especially bad.

In a few weeks it would still be distastful but not be poking in an fresh open wound in our neighbours and friends sides.

IMHO it would be much better to withdraw it to a "crimials pack" and add more bank robbers etc rather than have it as part of a terrorist pack.

It doesn't seem realistic for a terrorist to be flashing off his dynamite either he would never get close enough to the people he intended to murder because they would run.

Bungle,

If it is moraly wrong now it will be morally wrong in a few weeks. I don't think the grief or pain will have lessened a great deal by then.

VillageIdiot says he owns ultramodern figures. Presumably some of which represent units currrently deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq. What does he say to the families of those soldiers who have died and no doubt will continue to die while he plays games with them. A lot of modern entertainment features recreation of actual violence. It is watched by the majority of the population. I guarantee that in a few weeks there will be TV reconstructions of the London bombings, with advertising space sold in the middle of it.
I do not like the figure and will express that by not buying it. I think the timing is terrible but in the scheme of things a metal figure is not important. You could also argue that TAGs timing is terrible from a commercial point of view as many people will not want to be playing skirmish terroist games when the reality is so fresh in their minds.

Mhoram

Looks like we agree on lots of things… and I'll let you know if a few weeks if grief and pain have lessened a by then.

Come on, guys…this is going a bit too far. I'm not a big fan of suicide bomber figures in general, but I vote with my dollars instead of screeching indignantly about moral or ethical dimensions that fall apart when common sense enters the picture.

Look at it objectively:

In the end, the typical wargaming figures are all miniature replicas of people with guns or pointy objects, to be used for games that attempt to represent people with guns or pointy objects killing other people with (or without) guns or pointy objects.

Exactly how is that in better taste than a figure in an explosive vest? Don't explain it to me, explain it to someone who has been negatively and personally impacted by the specific conflict that you're gaming, or by events similar to the conflict that you're playing. Remember, the reverse side also has a reverse side.

I guess it's one reason why I like playing sci-fi games…there's nobody I have to justify my hobby to, and I don't have to take anyone who takes personal offense on the behalf of 6 foot tall bugs or large men in power armor seriously.

-Mel

I do not see how the Depiction of what is a VERY REAL action taken by a group of people who are so desparate that they feel they must take that kind of action to be heard (Suicide attacks).

That such people exist is a fact of life, and trying to stick your head in the sand just because of what their actions represnt is hypocritical. DEATH IS. Wargaming is about Simulating killing people. What difference does it make HOW we simulate that killing.

Admitedly, we in the west, and many other societies view that there is such a thing as honor in war (Facing your enemy, etc), but the world has evolved to such a place where that is not the case anymore with a rather large group of people. They see the act of giving their lives as the only method of being heard.

I cannot comment on the rationality of those beliefs, but historically, Terrorism has been a very succesful means of political action (The Amercian Revolution is one example of this. It was by no means terrorism as we see it today, but by the standards of the day, the "Amercians" did not play by the rules that the English did, and they saw it as "Dishonorable").

TAG should be commended for not sticking their heads in the sand to pretend that such people do not exist. It is a terribly sad fact that they do. It is a pitiful fact that they do, but it is still a fact no matter how you paint it. I think that we need to become used to this fact. Hiding from fear, or hding fear from ourselves is no way to help overcome that enemy that we fear

Bungle
I am not sure what to make of your post. If you have suffered some personal loss then please accept my apologies if my posts have offended you. The point I was trying to make is that playing wargames is a game. It is not real. If some people have moral ojections then they should apply to all historical wargaming irrespective of when the incident happened. I agree that what happened in London is still very raw and therefore more sensitive but I think that is a subjective thing. People in Iraq for example suffer this thing almost every day and their suffering and personal loss is just as real as I am sure no one here would deny.
There are far more important things to get upset and angry about at the moment then a 28mm piece of metal.