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"FFG does it again, X-Wing 2nd Ed...don't single out GW!" Topic


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1,638 hits since 2 May 2018
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Baranovich02 May 2018 10:50 a.m. PST

So I just saw that FFG is releasing X-Wing 2nd Edition. They argued that six years in it was time for some upgrades and tweaks to the rules to make them play better and more dynamically.

Sounds totally awesome. Cool! X-Wing gets a reboot. Great!

Oh, even cooler is that you can use all your existing fighter squadrons from the 1st Edition, no need to buy new ships! How generous of them. But wait, uhhhh, how the he** would you NOT be able to use your "existing collections" – the Star Wars ships themselves are official cannon. You can't make a "1st Edition X-Wing fighter" obsolete, that's silly. (I mean, that would be rather ludicrous any way…it's STAR WARS – an X-Wing fighter model doesn't change! A TIE fighter model doesn't change!).

In addition, FFG games is continuing to sell all the classic SW fighter ships at the same old price but in new packaging. Ok, cool.

OH, BUT WAIT! You still want to use all your ships? Well, guess what? The basic cards for the ships are now different, meaning all your old ship data is useless. So right now if you want to play 2nd Edition and be part of the latest meta, you can get THIS:

The 2nd Edition Conversion Kit!

link

50 f'n dollars. OH, but it gets better! You don't get the conversions needed for all the factions in the game, you pay $50 USD for the conversions for ONE faction. You want to do the conversions for the rebel alliance, the Empire, and the Scum and Villany? Then cough up $150.00 USD to "convert" all your classic ships just so you can play 2nd Edition. OH, and the dice have changed as well so you need to buy the 2nd Edition boxed set for $40.00 USD.

That's a tidy $190.00 USD JUST to continue using your existing collections of ships for the 2nd Edition. Are you f'n serious? Could they gouge their player base any more blatantly? They couldn't have offered the conversions as one package for a lesser price?

Seriously, s***w that. Just keep playing 1st Edition. OH, and please don't single out GW as being the evil empire of price-gouging. FFG is just as bad if not worse.

Just a little final reminder here – GW was decent enough to the player base to offer the Age of Sigmar rules for FREE, and all the warscrolls for all your old Warhammer armies for FREE. To this day you can play Age of Sigmar and not have to buy ANYTHING. Please don't lose sight of that.

Dynaman878902 May 2018 11:12 a.m. PST

Yup, I think it is a ripoff too – doesn't let GW off the hook however.

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2018 11:39 a.m. PST

Yes, let's not let GW off on this as they pretty much turned creating new editions into an art form! FFG does put out quality products and they've learned that gamers, especially sci-fi gamers, will pretty much plunk down whatever cash it takes. At least they give you a chance to upgrade your first edition. The most recent version of their Twilight Imperium was pretty much a whole new product, so you either kept your 3rd edition and played on, are coughed up the $120 USD or so for the new one.

Zematus02 May 2018 11:54 a.m. PST

Shrug.

According to the FAQ page, the Rebel conversion kit contains ship cards, upgrade cards, tokens and maneuver dials for 37 ships … between 2-4 copies of materials for 17 different Rebel ships. Considering that, by volume, all that stuff (cards, tokens, dial) makes up at least 50% of what comes in each ship package, it doesn't look like a bad deal to me. Especially since you are now getting ALL upgrade cards for ALL ships, which is great for filling in any from existing ships that you may not own.

link

I can't find anything that indicates that the dice have changed, but if they did you can just buy the dice pack for $8 USD, same as first edition.

link

End result, ~$158 for All cards, tokens and dials for ALL previously released ships (and a pack of dice).

Or you could buy the 2nd edition core set and wave1 releases (5 small ships, 1 medium) for $170. USD

Again. Shrug.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2018 11:56 a.m. PST

I have a standing order with the local game shop. The next time the Star Wars people wipe out all the rules and figures, invent a new scale and make everyone start over from scratch, I want a dozen each ewoks and wookiees of the superseded stuff when it's discounted. Is there anyone there who thinks I'll have to wait five years? I'm guessing three.

28mm Fanatik02 May 2018 12:40 p.m. PST

Planned obsolescence is a necessary evil. Game designers, artists and the miscellaneous staff in the game industry are people who also OMG! have bills to pay and lifestyles to maintain.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. No one's holding a gun to your head.

whitphoto Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2018 1:13 p.m. PST

Catch 22. Don't put out new editions and a constant stream of new product and people cause you of not ‘supporting' your game. Put out a new edition and a constant stream of new product and you get accused of money grabbing. Do neither and flip burgers for a living.

Tom Reed Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2018 1:53 p.m. PST

If you look at the conversion kit, you only get two cards for some ships, like the X-Wings.

emckinney02 May 2018 2:15 p.m. PST

<quote>GW was decent enough to the player base to offer the Age of Sigmar rules for FREE, and all the warscrolls for all your old Warhammer armies for FREE.<\quote>

The 2nd edition rules will be free as well (PDF), when they're ready. The squadron builder app will be free, so no need to buy any codexes (codices? tuna?).

The great hope is that this will make some of the bad cards and fighters (I'm looking at you, Marksmanship and Star Viper!) worth taking. The changes to Proton Torpedoes alone might be worth it. Fingers crossed …

saltflats192902 May 2018 2:16 p.m. PST

I was wondering why my burger was only cooked on one side.

Ghostrunner02 May 2018 3:41 p.m. PST

The irony being that the play balance and power-creep issues for Star Trek Attack Wing are WAYYYY worse than X-Wing ever dreamed of, and their 'revised' edition really addressed none of them.

Todd63602 May 2018 5:32 p.m. PST

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Dynaman878902 May 2018 7:01 p.m. PST

> If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Good advice for everyone everywhere. Although it really shouldn't be NEEDED advice.

Having never bought X-Wing and never planning to do so – except possibly to use the minis with other games – I still reserve the right to say I think it is a exploitative business model.

Space Ghost Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2018 8:39 p.m. PST

The upgrade kits only give you 2of most ships, with 3 or 4 for one or two of the more popular "swarm ships". Also, no upgrades for the "epic" scale ships, the Raider, Corvette, Rebel Transport etc. I would need to spend $340 USD just to get upgrades for my existing collection, and the new core … for three factions. I could get 7-8 GW codexes at that price point.

As a casual player, it's not worth it. I'll hang onto the models, plenty of other rule systems out their I can use them with.

Anyone interested in buying all my first edition tiles, dials, tokens and cards?

Also, anyone notice the price of fighters is goin up to $20 USD per ship now?

Texas Jack03 May 2018 3:34 a.m. PST

Space Ghost, why get rid of the rules, I think they will still work. grin

Capt Flash03 May 2018 4:04 a.m. PST

I purchased just a handful of ships and first edition. It was and is all I need.
Being a casual gamer does have benefits

Puddinhead Johnson03 May 2018 4:21 a.m. PST

OMG! They're trying to make money by selling
me a product I don't have to buy!!!!

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2018 5:27 a.m. PST

I ditched all of my X-Wing stuff, and avoid all FFG's "expandable" product like the plague. It's just a money pit, and I find it better to steer clear, no matter how cool it all is.

Wait, wasn't the second, "blue" core box second edition?

jdpintex03 May 2018 6:10 a.m. PST

Time to buy up all the 1st edition models (hopefully at a discount) and continue to play with those rules. I see no reason to start over.

I stopped playing FOW after the 3rd revision. I have better things to do (like painting that lead pile) than cut and paste new rules into old rulebooks.

Centurio Prime03 May 2018 9:16 a.m. PST

We all knew a new edition was coming sooner or later. After reading their FAQ, I'm feeling positive about this. I will probably spread my buying of upgrade packs over a year, though. Its fairly expensive, so I'll just convert 1 faction at a time.

This is not necessity, so all the drama and panic about "price gouging" is just silly. You can not play it, play 1st edition, borrow a friends 2nd edition upgrades and play a game, or any number of options. You are not forced to buy this. If the company made it too expensive, then they will be the victims.

Centurio Prime03 May 2018 9:21 a.m. PST

Also, why is this inappropriately crossposted into Consumer Affairs….

"A place to bring up consumer issues – praise for good service, and a place of last resort if you've had bad service and can't get the company or individual to fix it."

This is not "bad service", and you probably haven't asked FFG to "fix" the "problem". They could price the upgrade kits at $3,000 USD and it still wouldn't qualify as "bad service"

DeRuyter Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2018 11:34 a.m. PST

For the folks saying if you don't like it don't buy it – this thread is about people who already have collected what could be a lot of ships. Some players view X-Wing as collectables so they bought every ship in every wave they put out.

If you are a competitive X-Wing player well you'll likely shell out for the 2nd edition stuff but even on the FFG forums some people (likely younger than the average TMPer) are posting they can't afford to upgrade their collection.

The core 2e game is cheap at $29 USD but my beef is with the upgrade packs at $50. USD As someone mentioned it is by faction and your core ships have only 2 each in a kit. So for myself I'd need 3 kits just for my x-wings! Frankly that's lot of other minis I can buy! Now you can buy a dial pack separately but I read they also changed the movement rulers (good thing I didn't buy an expensive acrylic set).

Centurio I do agree it is not a consumer affairs issue, but imo the way FFG did this it certainly smells of price gouging. In no way silly for an invested player to be steamed about it. Plenty of companies release further editions of rules but in turn they don't rework all the game elements and then make it prohibitively expensive to change over to the new edition.

Centurio Prime03 May 2018 12:12 p.m. PST

"Price gouging" isn't really a term to use with luxury items. I can understand how many existing players may feel alienated by this need to upgrade though. I'm just going to stick with one faction, and buy that upgrade kit, then by the others as I see fit. I usually play one faction exclusively for many months anyway, until I get bored and switch, so this will work for me.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2018 4:54 p.m. PST

I don't play in tournaments or outside my own group, so I won't feel the pressure to rebuy all the stuff I already bought.

Having said that, it does mean the end of my X-Wing purchases, since any new ones won't be compatible with my existing ships.

As someone who has worked in games for the past two decades, I sympathize with the need to create a constant revenue stream – this rent isn't going to pay itself – but I'm not sympathetic to this model of product development.

billthecat03 May 2018 6:21 p.m. PST

Yes, absolute rubbish. FFG and GW are both rather vile. being a business is not a reason/excuse to use such strategies: there are other ways to make money (release new products/games, and/or broaden your markets).
On the bright side, only die-hard tournament meta-gamers need this sort of thing: the rest of us can continue using our existing products with total satisfaction.

Bandolier03 May 2018 8:07 p.m. PST

I stopped buying new X-wing stuff 3-4 years ago and don't play tournaments so this won't affect me. I may be tempted if the rules have some amazing improvements.

Centurio Prime04 May 2018 5:26 a.m. PST

The game has been out for 6 years. Another edition is inevitable. They have always been good about errata-ing imbalance issues in the game. There are layers of complexity in place due to the upgrade cards so that issues become harder to fix. Because of the many physical components that come with each ship, making some changes can be difficult without something like an upgrade kit. If a game does not update, the same naysayers will say that the game is dead.

The game was ALWAYS very expensive to play competitively. Whether this is a good move or not on FFG's part remains to be seen.

This site is not a good judge of what is popular outside of historical rules. I'm guessing FFG will do fine with this move.

Look at 8th edition 40k…. 40k is more popular than ever, even after all the chicken littles said it would fail.

28mm Fanatik04 May 2018 7:01 a.m. PST

TMP has never been a good gauge of consumer behavior and what people are willing to spend because the few vocal people who complain about "price gouging" and "unfair high prices" are in the minority.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa04 May 2018 9:07 a.m. PST

The seemingly price of the up-grade packs could well be the fault of consumers! FFG can't be blind to the prices of dials, cards, etc on the secondary market and I wouldn't blame them for using that to guide their price point. Though vessel specific upgrade packs would have seemed to be the common sense approach rather than a big pack of stuff some people may need more of or less of, and an open invitation for people to split and sell on the secondary market…

Centurio Prime04 May 2018 11:35 a.m. PST

each upgrade kit has a lot of printed cardboard. This is printed fairly cheaply in China, no doubt. But then there are all the other expenses, including the distributers and dealers markups. So I don't think $50 USD is totally unreasonable for the amount of stuff you get.

Wargamer Blue04 May 2018 5:59 p.m. PST

I'm just going to keep playing the original game.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2018 7:15 p.m. PST

To this day you can play Age of Sigmar and not have to buy ANYTHING.

Or I could just play an older version of WFB that had the armies far more balance so anything before 5th Edition.

Or to really be a Heretic I could play a totally different set of rules and still not have to buy anything that I don't already have.

ced110604 May 2018 8:20 p.m. PST

I got the impression that this game was becoming unwieldy with the number of releases, and they were selling ships that were less attractive. Sounded like to me that the game was closer to dying off. So, if that's the alternative and the rules need cleaning up, sure, clean up the rules.

Or, yes, if you still enjoy it, continue to play first edition.

FincasKhalmoril05 May 2018 2:22 a.m. PST

@ Mithmee: Indeed, but I think that's not the issue here.

FFG needs to churn out money just like any other company. The Star Wars universe has very limited amounts of ships that are of interest and cannot be changed. So they find ways to make money with their existing players.

Is it understandable? From a company‘s p.o.v.? Yes! Definitely.

Is it a fair move? Rather not. When other companies change editions they offer such stuff as free downloads or „just" make you buy new books (GW) . Books can be shared in a group, the relevant pages photocopied etc.

This is more in the line of rebase all your ships, use the new cards or get kickeuout of tournaments and buy new dice.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2018 6:03 p.m. PST

That's a tidy $190.00 USD USD JUST to continue using your existing collections of ships for the 2nd Edition

It really not that much since you can get the dice separate.

That is still far less than trying to keep up with GW when they make changes.

Personal logo Lost Wolf Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2018 8:37 p.m. PST

I've heard from several power players that power creep has become a big problem and needed to be fixed. Maybe this will do it. Still, it's a lot of money to stay current. Much more than I have at the moment. However, if I win the lottery problem solved.

Thomas Thomas Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2018 2:41 p.m. PST

Based on my own experience in tournaments and speaking with local "power" players, a once great game and become a card driven mess. The only solution was to burn the whole thing down and start over.

So cost aside good news in the short run but of course the power curve will just start over again if they don't avoid an excess of "power" cards and effects. They have never manage to control themselves before…

TomT

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