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"Grenzers in the 1809 campaign" Topic


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1,072 hits since 22 Apr 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2018 2:01 p.m. PST

Hello,

Some questions for the cognoscenti on here (or anyone else who fancies chipping in):-

1) Did Grenzer regiments still have integral artillery and if so, how was the detachment organised?

2) How were the guns deployed – were they held at regimental level for the CO to dish out as needed?

3) What uniforms did the gunners wear?

4) Did the Grenzer parent unit provide its own "muscle" to move the guns, or did it come from the "handlanger corps"?

5) What calibre guns did they use?

6) Similar question to 1) about the scharfschutzen or sharpshooter detachment in each regiment – ie was it a regimental resource that could pop up anywhere, or did it have a fixed tactical role/position when the regiment was deployed?

7) Were the scharfschutzen backed up with musket-armed men, and if so, in what ratio?

8) Who invented the bric……nah, only joking.

Thanks for whatever help you can provide.

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2018 1:54 a.m. PST

Once in a while I looked… Seems they had guns still grouped into the brigade battery. If they were still from rgt they'd wear the same uniform. I even asked manufacturers to do them, but…
3lb
I used Essex greatcoat once and a bunch of Portuguese figs, as similar shaped, in nondescript stovepipe for fun. As they might be used in 1805 too!
On the other end when only 1 Grenzer rgt and 8 guns… Hardly would come all from it.

marshalGreg23 Apr 2018 6:01 a.m. PST

Yes it seem in 1809 the advant garde Division, which contained the Grenzer infantry, had 1 brigade battery of Grenz art.
From my research…. to figure out how to do them indicated this:
Reg artillery gunners leading Grenz "artillery handlers". So what this meant was with typical light/mountain geared 3 pdr ( I guess that meant smaller carriage/wheel size?- I Used normal 3pdr) with typical 4 figure per gun set-up… I have 1-2 gunners in typical austrian artillery wear with 2-3 grenzer handlers with the old style austrian hat/shako (old <1798 style). Head conversion or AB-rev Austrian Grenz artillerist: link
Since these handlers came straight from the Grenz unit, they wear the same uniform. I.E. White for the grenz in white or brown for the ones in brown- unit facing color. If this is incorrect hopefully some one with the "great" source will chime in with it.

Enjoy the process

MG

von Winterfeldt23 Apr 2018 6:06 a.m. PST

@Supercilius Maximus

I recommend to download volumes 3 and 4 of

Vanicek, F : Spezialgeschichte der Militärgrenze volums 3 and 4, 4 covers your period of interest, and it is not in Fraktur – so easy to read

For 1809

Each of the 17 Grenzregimenter provided two field battalions of 2966 men, 240 sharpshooters and 44 gunners included, volume 4 – page 114

You will also find some battle reports.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2018 7:40 a.m. PST

Also see Mitteilungen des k.u.k. Kriegs-Archivs 3. (Dritte Folge, 1904) for exhaustive article on Austrian artillery in 1809 by Major Semek – see link onwards

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2018 2:32 p.m. PST

Thanks for the links, suggestions, and information, chaps.

Very much appreciated.

I'm looking at the Gradiscaner (8th) Regiment, which served in the avant-garde of the V Korps, under Radetzsky.

John Edmundson23 Apr 2018 4:13 p.m. PST

Looking at Ascerbi,we have:
"[Referring to the reforms of 1801] Grenzers or Military Border units= 2 pieces of 6 or 3 pdrs. per battalion"
"In 1807 Archduke Charles withdrew definitively the regimental and battalion guns from infantry to form brigade batteries, except for the Grenzer regiments which continued to maintain two light artillery pieces per battalion."

So he too says the Grenz battalions kept their guns but suggests some may have had 6pdrs, although I'd think 3pdrs seems more reasonable.

This page shows a Grenz artillerist. It's about 3/4 of the way down the page (search under Wallachians). Obviously a secondary source but it matches the AB interpretation with the early hat. link

By sharpshooters, do you mean the Serressaner?

Cheers,
John

von Winterfeldt23 Apr 2018 11:07 p.m. PST

the only Grrenz artillery gunner I know is form the so called "Artaria" series of prints, basically the identical uniform as the infantry, in 1809 I would opt for the identical headdress and not the old Kaskett worn till about 1800.

By sharpshooters, I guess he means those Grenzer which were equipped with rifles – the Grenzscharfschützen

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2018 2:46 a.m. PST

Yes that"s what I thought, tempted by the AB, but why would these 44 be left with old style uniforms? No way.
In 15mm pretty happy with my converted Portuguese.
Of course if in 28 one woukd need a proper fig.

John Edmundson24 Apr 2018 11:13 p.m. PST

Von Winterfeldt wrote:
"the only Grrenz artillery gunner I know is form the so called "Artaria" series of prints, basically the identical uniform as the infantry, in 1809 I would opt for the identical headdress"

Interesting, so when you say identical headdress, do you mean identical to the Grenz infantry from which they were drawn (shako) or identical to normal artillery, so in the bicorne?

If the shako, does anyone make Austrian artillery crew in shakos in 15mm???

Cheers,
John

von Winterfeldt25 Apr 2018 1:23 a.m. PST

I mean the identical headdress as the infantry – so in 1792 it is the Kaskett, in 1809 I would opt for a shako – Grenz gunners looked totaly different to the regular infantry.
A head swop may help the problem of headgear

John Edmundson25 Apr 2018 3:40 a.m. PST

Thanks for that.

Cheers,
John

von Winterfeldt25 Apr 2018 4:02 a.m. PST

I mean Grenz artillery looked total different to the regular artillery, they had the usual Grenz infantry uniform but with artillery equipment belts etc.
sorry for the confusion I created

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP28 Apr 2018 7:42 a.m. PST

Thank you all for your replies, folks. Much appreciated.

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