"US Sub Not Welcome in Naples" Topic

"The fact that it is the same submarine (involved in the Syria attack) further reinforces the rightness of the order with which we said ships of nuclear propulsion or carrying nuclear weapons are not welcome in the port of Naples and, therefore, they are not allowed to transit or stay," the mayor told ANSA.

link

I know what city I would not worry about defending in any way, shape, or form if I were calling the shots for NATO.

I was on a Mediterranean cruise stopping in Naples a few years ago and the ship I was on wasn't terribly old but was greatly delayed on leaving and a ship's officer said that this ship would be taken off this route as the port officials were always finding something to complain about.

I imagine that even though the submarines of various
nations might not be welcome in Naples, the money their
crews spend is probably very welcome…

I'll bet the next time when/if Vesuvius acts up again they'll welcome any US ship that shows up to help.

And how did the whole world find out which specific vessel was involved?

That's who I would stop defending.

Dan

Reading the linked Fox News article and Italy's ANSA article which is linked to that one, I'm not sure the mayor of Naples has or had any say in the matter.

The article states that the submarine was given permission to transit thru the area by the Italian military who actually run the port. Although the Naples city government has declared itself a no go zone for nuclear fueled and/or nuclear armed vessels, the Italian government seems to think and act otherwise. The article even states that Italy herself gave assistance in the conduct of the strike on Syria.

The other odd thing is that the Naples government by it stance seems to be anti-nuclear but pro-chemical in its choice of munitions.

Didn't Italy pull out of NATO? Or do I have them confused with another country?

Naples isn't the only city to ban nuclear weapons.

I had a memory that NYC did (at one stage?).

This isn't necessarily anti-American.

This article, by a former RN officer no less, points out why NZ's ban is very valid:
link

I may or may not agree with the kiwi stance but I certainly respect their position. If I knew more about the Naples case, I'd possibly feel the same.

Italy is still part of NATO. The only country that I can recall pulling out of NATO was France, but even then it only pulled out of the NATO command structure, not NATO itself, in 1966. But they came back in 2009.

Naples is free to say whatever they want. I imagine that the local restaurants, houses of ill repute, and other tourist traps are not happy about losing about a thousand dollars a night per person from the submarine's crew, though!

@ochoin: The problem is that former RN officer doesn't know his hat from a hole in the ground when it comes to nuclear power. nuclear weapons are a completely different thing, from safe handling to actual threats to the environment.

The Kiwis are free to refuse to allow nuclear-powered ships to visit their ports. Too bad that usually means that the entire carrier group goes someplace else, there's a lot of money in tourist-fleecing that they're losing out on.

The US Navy has not had a radioactive release into the environment EVER. Not even the two nuclear subs on the bottom of the Atlantic have leaked radioactivity.

LitS

I would have to say that not everything is about money. Principle counts for many people. It is a civil authority's to protect the people who live there. I'm sure if the locals think such anti-nuclear policies are bootless they'd vote their council out of office. Democracy in action. But in NZ the anti-nuclear stance is nearly universal in approval & I honour them for it. But as you Americans say (I think); Your kilo metage may vary.

I will sadly have to prefer a Royal Navy commander's views backed up by his CV (at the bottom of the article). The RN are a quintessentially professional service. But, again, YKMV.

They are so cute. Cities that think they are above State and specially National laws, needs and interests, and even above international treaties, but yet they still want all the benefits.

Oh well, if the grand show of words is done right before an election, it could tip the results in favor of the candidates who want to appear as though they are standing up so defiantly against all the evil Goliaths (the safe giants who don't bite back, of course). The idiots are the ones who fall for that obvious trick every single time.

Dan

Did Naples just split away from the rest of Italy and become its own country? This notion of cities exerting themselves above country is ridiculous.

I knew one US officer who went through the Perisher command course. Best officer I've ever had the privilege to work for. So I know the RN is extremely professional.

But nuclear weapons and nuclear power are simply different beasts. You should have heard the comments when someone put the movie The Core on my sub… MST3K had nothing on the "It doesn't work like that!!!eleventyone!" comments.

In a pressurized water reactor (the type that everyone uses for naval propulsion), the Primary water that touches the nuclear fuel is in completely separate pipes from the Secondary water that gets turned into steam to spin turbines. And the water that is turned into steam is completely separate from the seawater outside the hull (called the Tertiary loop in land-based powerplants).

The cracks that everyone was panicking about were in the Steam Generator, which is the connection between the Primary and secondary loops.

I can't come up with an equivalent breakage in a car, because a car's cooling system is far far simpler. A car's cooling system only has the one loop (well, several parallel loops, one the radiator, one the oil cooler, and another the transmission fluid cooler). A leak in any one of them would be catastrophic to the car.

A crack in the Steam Generator isn't like a leak between the coolant and the oil, either, because a blown head gasket is also catastrophic to the car.

The only way you know there's a leak in the Steam Generator is because the water level in the reactor keeps going down. Or because you've suddenly detected some alpha particles in the steam lines. You can keep running the reactor until you get home, with very little worry about anything.

They are so cute. Cities that think they are above State…

This notion of cities exerting themselves above country is ridiculous.

This man would agree:

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state". – Benito Mussolini

New Zealand's courageous, hard-won global role as a relatively independent honest broker and leader in promoting alternative security policies* which are not locked into US nuclear war-fighting strategies

* emphasis added
Could somebody please tell me what those are? Please?

Begemot

Out of context again. I also mentioned above international treaties, which some view as paramount … when convenient, of course.

Dan

He just likes to stir the pot with his out of context one liners. Italy is a democratic republic similar to the USA. I'm pretty sure individual cities in Italy don't negotiate their own international treaties or do things in violation of national law. Although there are a few city governments in the USA that are violating federal law. Most of those cities have serious problems from decades of mismanagement.

New Zealand's courageous, hard-won global role as a relatively independent honest broker and leader in promoting alternative security policies* which are not locked into US nuclear war-fighting strategies

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read here. It reminds me of the scene in the movie "The Third Man" when Orson Welles character says:

"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed. They producedd Michaelangelo, da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."

Well at least the Swiss gave us the cuckoo clock.

Hong Kong must be so courageous to these admirers of urban assertiveness and defiance then, for standing up for other freedoms and against a different Goliath (a true totalitarian one). :)

Dan

Wait didnt the Swiss also produce a bunch of mercenary pikes that gave no quarter to the enemy? I think the Swiss neighbors much prefer clocks to pikes.

And let's not forget chocolates!

Dan

I have to say that having pulled our ship into Naples a number of times the water in the harbor and trash in streets is more dangerous then a scrambled core in any reactor. It could really be a beautiful place if they cleaned it up. I have no problem with a city, or a country taking on a stance like this, it is something that a free society allows. What is discouraging is when countries support certain policies and their people take different positions out on the sailors, airmen, and soldiers stationed in those countries. There are sometimes mitigating circumstances due to bad behavior of some on liberty, but the hope that we can continue to serve where needed.

I'm not sure how long this has been a policy. But lately, I have noticed a political trend from America declaring "America and allies first" to "America first" which might cause those allies to start re-rhinking their positions. Not that there is any action to necessarily support the "America first" position, but talk is the way the world runs, even if it's cheap.

@Begemot, what would you say to a city in the US inviting Kim Jong Unstable to speak on nuclear disarmament?

Lion – Why not? Video feed from Pyongyang to City X so there aren't issues of visas and security. Presentation with Q&A. People can see the Monster Kim in action and form their own opinion. Why not?

The problem with asking grandson Kim is the follow-up. A tour of his 20mm AA gun, from the muzzle.

Sailor – For an American asking a question in America? Really?

Begemot

And where are you asking that from? :)

Dan