"PLA in Vietnam" Topic

Just finished reading this article about China and Vietnam border war. I was surprised how large and long this was. I knew they had border skirmishes, but had no clue they had major battles and campaigns.

Anyone game this? If so, any battle reports I could read.
Thanky.

link

Interesting. I've talked to people who really believe that China never suffered such a defeat.

I guess their propaganda machine is still strong, probably with some help from the 50 cent party.

Dan

I played some of the 1979 war on a computer game called Steel Panthers II – Modern war.

The two militaries were quite evenly matched in the battles.

Between communist China and communist Vietnam, I don't know how anyone could tell who to believe. No communist country has ever been known for truth and veracity. I have a friend from Vietnam who says as of about eight years ago when he left, their history in school did not indicate there was ever a South Vietnam, more properly the Republic of Vietnam. It never existed!

They seem to outdo even free world politicians as there is no free press.

I think one would at least have to conclude that China failed to win as the Chinese went home and Vietnam remained intact.

Tom

I'd agree with that Garry … once again as with the French, US/SEATO and then China. The Vietnamese had " the home team advantage". And displayed the ability to take a lot of losses and come back for more.

Of course as it has been said, it's their backyard … and they didn't have to "win" … they just not "lose". And they know sooner or later the "invaders" would go home after the blood and/or treasure became too costly …

Plus it is very well known, that they got a lot of support from both the USSR and China. With their war against the Western "invaders". But as we see the Chinese did what they deemed was good for them, like all other nations do. It suited them to support Vietnam when it was to there advantage. And in turn reverse that … again … when it suited them. Geopolitics/Realpolitik, i.e. business as usual …

Well, seeing as how some people these day believe that the US killed "millions" of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians, I'm sure that in another generation or two it will be "billions".

And we are supposed to have a free press. :)

Dan

Well, seeing as how some people these day believe that the US killed "millions" of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians,

Dan, do you have a source for more accurate casualties?

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say the Chinese got their asses handed to them. As to Geopolitics/Realpolitik, an historical perspective of the age old animosity between China and Vietnam would've served us better in the region.

Wikipedia has a decent review of the literature and lets you look at a lot of the data from the various researchers. While U.S. forces may not have killed "millions," the total death toll in SEA was certainly at that level. The South Vietnamese army and security forces certainly added a significant number of deaths.

Note that "millions" wouldn't be civilians alone, but would include military casualties.

There is a Chinese TV series "Candle in the Wind" about a fellow who was an officer in a Sion-Vietnamese dust up and becomes a sort of Indiana Jones figure afterwards, looking for a lost dynasty.

Some epic flashbacks of his experiences…although the show is pretty sketchy on dates…

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say the Chinese got their asses handed to them.

It certainly appeared so.

As to Geopolitics/Realpolitik, an historical perspective of the age old animosity between China and Vietnam would've served us better in the region.

At that time, the West's/US concern was loosing another country/region to the "Reds". With China's (and the USSR's) support of the NVA/VC, only made it look like "The Domino Theory" was in affect. Regardless if it was or not.

But again hindsight is 20/20 generally. And with China going completely "Commie" after WWII, followed by the Korean War fought pretty much to a stalemate. Then the French being pretty much run out of much of (French)Indochina. It looked like another domino was going to fall. So one could see how possibly some in the West could put credence in the Domino Theory …

GaryOwen
Between ..China and Vietnam, ..how anyone could tell who to believe. No communist country has ever been known for truth and veracity. a friend from Vietnam who says.. their history in school did not indicate there was ever a South Vietnam.. the Republic.. never existed!

Well like it or not, IMO, its a fair to say, Historically: "Truth & Politics, rarely keep the same company."

Two statements I think are worthy of remembrance:
"The winner is generally the one left to write the history."
And..
"He who controls the press, controls the "Truth"'.

Very True … And we see that sort of thing almost daily in the US media …

One influencing factor may have been that the Vietnamese probably still contained a very large fraction of combat veterans, especially in command positions. Not necessarily so for the Chinese methinks; apart from the odd border skirmish with the USSR, they had not fought a campaign in earnest since the unpleasantness in Korea several decades previously.

B

Yeah, the real advantage in the 1979 war was all the combat veterans the Vietnamese could call back to duty.

The US had done a very good job training them to survive!

I think the one 'resource' China has always had on its side was 'numbers'. However as you've pointed out, but lacking experience cost them, and the farther they would push into Vietnamese territory, the worse the situation became.

Very true guys … in '79 the Vietnamese had many combat vets with plenty of recent experience fighting the USA/SEATO. Plus as always they had the "home team/court" advantage.

Plus the Chinese had very little combat experience. As mentioned the last time they deployed larges forces in a conflict was the Korean War, '50-'53. And there again, their losses we very high …

And their "numbers" in both '50-'53 & '79, were large in deployment and in casualties …