"Quick-Playing Combat Mechanisms with Dice Pools?" Topic

Guys, I'm looking for example rulesets that are quick-resolving (arguably abstract and/or simple is fine) and don't involve having to sling around giant handfuls of dice.

I'd like examples to reference as my gaming buddy and I houserule our current system.

This will be for army-sized battles in the Pike and Shot era, if you are looking for the context.

Johnny Reb uses 2d6 and a chart.

For King & Parliament uses a few d10 essentially, usually 2

As written, FK&P uses chits, so no dice at all :)
Though I did think that dice for combat would make sense.

We've found that using cards instead of dice is actually much faster. There's none of the traditional (but time wasting) few seconds shaking of the hand holding the dice before rolling, or needing to reroll the dice because one is cocked, or off the table.

Just flip the card!

As for the OP's question, if you try DBR by Phil Barker, you only need to roll one die each for a combat. The rules themselves are written in a somewhat opaque fashion, and they have their quirks, but they do cover all of the Pike & Shot period, and I usually enjoy playing them.

5Core might be up you alley

Just flip the card!

This assumes that cards are equally random to dice. They are not.
First, a deck of cards consists of a specified number of distinct results, each unique (there is only one Ace of Spades…unless you wanna get shot in Tombstone). Once each unique result has been revealed, that unique result will *not* appear again. Thus, on the first draw from a ten card deck, the possibility of any unique result is 1 in 10. On the second draw, the possibility of that same result is 0! But on a d10, each roll of the die is always equally likely to produce any of the possible results. So to match this, one must reshuffle the ten card deck for every draw. (Which, by the way, is certainly equally as time consuming as shaking the dice.)
Furthermore, in order to be truly random in sequence a card deck must be shuffled multiple times before the cut. There is a great deal of math behind all this, and even then some debate, but in general a 52 card deck must be shuffled at least 7 times before a cut to produce a truly random result, and even that assumes a perfect "riffle" shuffle (cards overlapping one at a time). Others suggest 11 to 12 full riffle shuffles are in fact necessary. (No link, but c'mon, man, you can Google it as well as I.)
Now, this number obviously drops for a smaller deck of cards (as my suggested ten card deck), but it's still never just one shuffle, but several. And unless you're a veteran card shark, you're probably not gonna hit that riffle thing anywhere near perfect. (By the way, other shuffling methods will actually take longer to produce a truly random result…like several minutes per shuffle!) So with cards what you end up with is either a potentially highly predictable sequence of results or no actual time savings at all.

For some situations and themes, that's okay. But for a truly random result, dice are still the best choice.

We have been playing an upcoming set for the ECW and TYW era. It should be available at the end of the month. It is called Twilight of Divine Right and is a development from this set – link

The idea is to play most historic battles on a reasonable sized table, 6 by 4 (1.8m by 1.2m) generally but the system is flexible and it depends on the frontage of your units – this is based on a frontage of around 120mm for a unit.

The combat system (it is actually a morale test) is based on 2 dice modified by quality, situation, etc. You either pass, lose 1 'hit' (units have 2 to 5) or the unit is dead.

The system is different to the one on the link but similar.

I have always found speed of play far more dependent on gamers, than on games.

Our club plays pretty fast, in part because we leave the rules to the GM. So the GM says: roll 13 dice for 4s. Over time we figure out the rules but meanwhile we move along.

I've played with other clubs where they have to hunt down the dice. find their lucky ones, ask why hitting on 4s. Double check the to hit. Recount the dice, then roll. Takes forever.

Same goes for charts. Roll 2d6, roll high! GM consults chart, announces result, we move along.

Other groups have to work through every roll, check every modifier, every time. Takes for ever.

This assumes that cards are equally random to dice.

Uh, no it doesn't. I was just pointing out that in our games, using cards was a faster method of combat resolution. I absolutely agree with your probability analysis of cards. (Although we use multiple decks to somewhat minimize the effect). However, like a computer's "random number generator", it's good enough for us!

I wasn't aware of the shuffles needed to truly randomize a deck. Very interesting. I'm glad my probability theory professor didn't make us calculate those odds, back in the day when calculators couldn't be programmed!

On a sidenote, most dice are not completely random, a fact Lou Zocchi pointed out years ago. I seem to remember someone once manually tested some GW dice (those small white cheap ones that they used to include in everThis assumes that cards are equally random to dice. y boxed game) for hundreds of rolls and discovered they are definitely biased.

I would say hundreds of rolls was not an adequate test. Even thousands is not an adequate test to really prove an bias.

Yes, some dice are biased, but not nearly as biased as most players will believe. They are quite sure that the other guy's are better and that their own suck.

Cards, dice, as for speed, I can't really say. 2 dice thrown onceand a chart of just a few modifiers is faster than shuffling a deck and drawing a card.

Counting figs to figure out how many dice, then counting 20 nsided dice out for the bucket, adding dice for modifiers, counting the 18s or higher s rolled, re-rolling the twos or less because they are elites (except on sunday during leap year execepting if the dice are blue), then re-rolling all the 18+ to confirm a hit with a whole other slew of mods has got to be the slowest way.

Analysis paralysis is my biggest gripe about slowing down games.

Silly dice rituals deserve punishment, IE if you go through the blowing, kissing and whining demands to your dice and you still don't roll your six…you buy the round. If you do
roll your 6, you still buy the next two, because we are now doubly sad at seeing your malarky and then having to sit through the silly gloating ritual that follows. It always follows…

> Counting figs to figure out how many dice, then counting 20 nsided dice out for the bucket, adding dice for modifiers, counting the 18s or higher s rolled, re-rolling the twos or less because they are elites (except on sunday during leap year execepting if the dice are blue), then re-rolling all the 18+ to confirm a hit with a whole other slew of mods has got to be the slowest way.

> Analysis paralysis is my biggest gripe about slowing down games.

Yeah, that's what's gotten to us. We want to play large battles so we've got armies with 12-17 units each. Doing the match each time for combat and subsequent status checks is drawing out the length of time beyond the 2-3hrs we've got free to play.

I'm messing around with a polyhedral dice system that riffs off of Baroque/Impetus that may solve our woes, but am curious how others have solved the problem.

I would say hundreds of rolls was not an adequate test. Even thousands is not an adequate test to really prove an bias.

When I took that course in mathematical probability, I was quite surprised how small a sample needs to be for the various statistical analyses to be able to prove, within a small margin of error, a true bias or merely a statistical blip. The minimum accurate sample size is about twelve. A lot more than that is just a waste of time. Mind you, that was for scientific experiments and results, so perhaps trying to measure something that is inherently random might require more.

But back to speed of play – I agree with the two previous posts. A lot of wasted time is often due to the players. I play with one gent – a great fellow, don't get me wrong – that needs to know what exact number he needs. So, yes, he must go over all the modifiers to reach the target number. Whereas my more usual opponent and I tend to just roll immediately. A lot of times the result is obvious if we roll a one or a six. No need to waste time looking stuff up.

That said, a lot of wasted time can be attributed to poor rules design. A good rules design will have any modifiers AFTER an initial roll. "To The Strongest" is a great example. ALL units hit in melee on a 6+, unless disordered then it is an 8+. If you beat that number, then you can take the time to calculate all the other modifiers beloved of gamers (like terrain and whatnot) for the saving throw. All of Peter Pig's rules usually do the same thing as well. Everything hits on a 4+.

Minimum of 12? I have a cancer drug for you to try out. Dice have no memory.