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"Time To Move Cold Wars To April" Topic

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47Ronin24 Mar 2018 12:52 p.m. PST

It's not a question, it's a statement.

Four Nor'easters in March in less than three weeks, each one involving major snow accumulations.

Cold Wars 2018 got VERY lucky. It fell in between two major storms.

Moving to mid-April (after Easter and Tax Day) should avoid future weather problems. It also returns CW to where it often was in the past. For example, in 1999 Cold Wars was in mid-April.

As far as other conventions are concerned, the only two other April cons that I attended were Pointcon at West Point and Havoc in MA. Pointcon has not been held for several years (for various reasons) and shows no signs of returning. Havoc, by its own admission, is smaller than it once was. It could stay in April or also decide to move to a warmer month.

This BOD is considered to be smart by some (including me). They could prove it by moving Cold Wars to April (and it doesn't even need to be at the Host).

We'll see.


Personal logo Buckeye AKA Darryl Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 1:40 p.m. PST

Then I guess a name change would be required as well? Something like Luke Warm Wars, or Not As Cold Wars?

Prior to 1999 I believe it was in March. I stopped attending in 96 or 97, but I believe it was in March, or even February then…always seemed to be snow on the ground at Fort Necessity on the way home.

zoneofcontrol Inactive Member24 Mar 2018 1:59 p.m. PST

Moving the con itself would be ok either way with me. However, I hope they hold the flea market (only) at the same time on a Friday night in mid-March.

stecal Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 2:02 p.m. PST

I like CW in March, even Feb would do. I have better things to be doing outdoors in April

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 2:12 p.m. PST

Not to mention they have it on Saint Patrick's day which is a big day at my house.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 3:09 p.m. PST

I think it's a great idea, the weather in March is too much of a wildcard. We got a foot of snow the day before I went to pick up the van and load it, which was a pain in the rear end to navigate around.

A few years ago I drove down in a blizzard on Wednesday, they shut down the PA turnpike and I drove in on a cow path that put me on 222 and at one point on 222, I literally could not tell where the road was, it was a nightmare.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 3:10 p.m. PST

There would be a greater chance of running up against Easter, which would mean a dropoff for those of a religious bent. So, no.

vagamer63 Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 3:35 p.m. PST

A late April date would put CW five months after FI and roughly three months before HC. Another stick in the mud would be game submissions for H-Con PEL would be due before folks even leave for CW!

wargamingUSA24 Mar 2018 3:41 p.m. PST

Wonder how that works for vendors and gamers that attend Adepticon, SYW Con, and Little Wars… or maybe that's not a concern. Maybe a little competition and some choices would change some dynamics.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 4:39 p.m. PST

Guys, don't make me choose between SYWA and Cold Wars--especially with the Friday flea market killed.

oldnorthstate24 Mar 2018 5:53 p.m. PST

I've been going to CW, held sometime in February or March, since 1988..and drove through a snowstorm to get there in 1988. But since then there has only been one major snow event a couple of years ago, some minor snow issues but nothing on a regular basis. The weather along the East Coast has been extremely variable this year, but not sure you can count on it remaining that way into the future. April might be an option, but late March is also safer, but Easter tends to get in the way.

BTCTerrainman Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2018 6:35 p.m. PST

Or just drop to two shows a year?…….

I do not have an issue moving to April, and with the weather issues the past 4 years (yes we have had snow related issues 2 of the past 4 and got extremely lucky this year), it is definitely something to consider. The challenge is working around Easter.

Pulling a trailer to the shows is a definite concern as snow does not mix well with this. I usually find myself closely watching the weather for Cold Wars and adjusting my schedule to accommodate weather (and the PA Turnpike closes down to vehicles with trailers during snow…..).

RudyNelson24 Mar 2018 6:53 p.m. PST

I always thought Cold Wars was in March or April depending on which one did not have Easter. And Little Wars was in the same month as Easter.
Of course I remember a few of the early shows when it was in Feb. no Fall In then.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP25 Mar 2018 2:56 a.m. PST

You know guys, speaking as one of a religious bent, Easter is not a problem. Not that I would attend a show that weekend, but you're speaking as though it's a surprise. Any competent minister--or a web site--can give you Western and Orthodox Easters twenty years out. So there are one or two spring weekends--often but not always in April--that you'd want to avoid. Not the worst problem they'd have moving the show.

billclo25 Mar 2018 3:05 a.m. PST

I like the April idea. Works for me.

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP25 Mar 2018 5:23 a.m. PST

Later in March works, but don't like moving to April.

kcabai25 Mar 2018 6:15 a.m. PST

Here's the Formula for Determining the Date of Easter
In A.D. 325, the Council of Nicaea set the date of Easter as the Sunday following the paschal full moon, which is the full moon that falls on or after the vernal (spring) equinox. In practice, that means that Easter is always the first Sunday after the first full moon that falls on or after March 21.

Easter can occur as early as March 22 and as late as April 25, depending on when the paschal full moon occurs.

What Is the Significance of the Paschal Full Moon?
The Council of Nicaea decided that Easter must always occur on a Sunday because Sunday was the day on which Christ rose from the dead. But why is the paschal full moon used to determine the date of Easter? The answer comes from the Jewish calendar. Passover fell on the date of the paschal full moon in the Jewish calendar, and the Last Supper (Holy Thursday) occurred on the Passover. Therefore, the very first Easter Sunday—the day on which Christ rose from the dead—was the Sunday after Passover.

For Calculation Purposes, Approximate Dates Are Necessary
The paschal full moon can fall on different days in different time zones, which presents a problem when calculating the date of Easter. If people in different time zones were to calculate the date of Easter depending on when they observed the paschal full moon, that would mean that the date of Easter would be different depending on which time zone they lived in.

For that reason, the Church does not use the exact date of the paschal full moon but an approximation.

For calculation purposes, the full moon is always set at the 14th day of the lunar month. (The lunar month begins with the new moon.) For the same reason, the Church sets the date of the vernal equinox at March 21, even though the actual vernal equinox can occur on March 20.

These two approximations allow the Church to set a universal date for Easter, regardless of when you observe the paschal full moon in your time zone.

Dadster Supporting Member of TMP25 Mar 2018 6:48 a.m. PST

I wouldnt mind a date change. Sorry to say it but despite the excitement of the convention, Saint Patricks day is not the event in Lancaster that it is in NY. The parade is a tradition I hate missing.

I am all in favor of an April Date. Call it 'Springtime for Gamers' or some such thing…

zoneofcontrol Inactive Member25 Mar 2018 6:57 a.m. PST

Sounds like we need to expand the pool of HMGS, Inc. BOD prospects to include the Vatican City.

Sister Theophilus* is proudly smiling down from Heaven at you presentation.

* = Sister Theophilus taught my father and all his siblings, my mother and most of her siblings as well as all my brothers except one. She was a fixture at our school for decades.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP25 Mar 2018 7:25 a.m. PST

"As far as other conventions are concerned, the only two other April cons that I attended were Pointcon at West Point and Havoc in MA."

They may be the two others that you attended but they are not the only April cons. HMGS-South's Recon is in April.

47Ronin25 Mar 2018 10:04 a.m. PST

A few rebuttal points:

1) In the original post, I said AFTER Easter and Tax Day. Let's leave the Vatican out of this. They have enough troubles of their own.

2) We drove through a snow shower on Friday morning to the Host this year;

3) Today's radar weather map shows snow in PA from Harrisburg to Philly. Unless they moved Lancaster since Cold Wars, it's probably snowing at The Host today. Anyone who is local can give us an update;

4) It's not just PA: a NASCAR race in VA was cancelled today due to the weather;

5) Weather has impacted CW attendance for years and HMGS knows it. It's not a question of "if" attendance will be affected, but "by how much";

6) There's less vendor/GM/gamer overlap than one might expect between Cold Wars and the other cons mentioned above; and

7) As long as each HMGS show makes money (or at least breaks even) and adequate staffing exists, HMGS (East) won't be dropping a show. In the last round of decision making by the BOD, HMGS had more candidates for convention directors than conventions. Plus, if you are a member and look at the financials, you know that all the cons are making money, in some cases a lot of it.

Like I said, we'll see.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP25 Mar 2018 10:47 a.m. PST

Just leave it in March.

snurl1 Inactive Member25 Mar 2018 10:04 p.m. PST

I remember CW being cancelled and moved to April due to a storm a few years ago.
I also remember a few CW years that were bright and sunny.
HMGS doesn't plan the weather.

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member26 Mar 2018 3:29 a.m. PST

I like having 3 shows.. but… if we had 2 really nice, big shows.. that would be waaaay cool. But, that would start the whole war of locations all over again….. the venue would have to change for sure as 2 shows would draw a larger crowd at each, etc…..

Ummmm, never mind…. pretend I didn't write this…..

historygamer26 Mar 2018 5:24 a.m. PST

Cold Wars used to sometimes be held in April but that was due to the Easter holiday and scheduling with the Host. The problem with it being in April is you start seeing people get involved in yard work and sports programs for kids really starts kicking in then too. I don't care though either way, but perhaps a tad later in March might help – though we just had that snow event after CW so go figure.

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 8:48 a.m. PST

Leave it in March and at the Host.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 9:12 a.m. PST

"Ummmm, never mind…. pretend I didn't write this….."

Don't make me stop this car and come back there, Dan….

dapeters26 Mar 2018 1:00 p.m. PST

"I remember CW being cancelled and moved to April due to a storm a few years ago"

I am not sure this is correct(the reason part) but I recall CW being in April at lest twice I asked Bob G. (the con director) and IIRC he said it was because of a conflict with the host.

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 1:24 p.m. PST

"I remember CW being cancelled and moved to April due to a storm a few years ago"

I have been going as a vendor for 15 years and this did not happen.

While the weather would be better (hopefully), the potential conflict with Easter, Spring Break, moving too close to Historicon all cause issues.

We roll dice every game. Just think of CW weather as another game.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 3:17 p.m. PST

CW 99 was in April according to the notes I have from Pat Condray. It caused South to attempt to move Recon to 19 March that year but due to issues with the hotel it ended up being 30 April to 2 May. Pat doesnt state why CW was moved to April.

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 4:08 p.m. PST

kcabai, Thanks much for that info. I always wondered why Easter was not the 3rd Sunday of March but wandered around the calendar. By why is the Greek Orthodox Easter on a different day?

I will not go to any CW in March again after two bad storms I have gone through. CW weather may be just another game, but I do not like the odds :)

Ember52 Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 4:36 p.m. PST


Most Western Christian churches utilize the Gregorian calendar in plotting the date for Easter. Orthodox churches use the older Julian calendar.

custosarmorum Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2018 5:34 p.m. PST

I don't see why Easter is a significant problem in and of itself. It is easy enough to google the dates of Easter years out (21 April 2019, 12 April 2020, 4 April 2021, 17 April 2022, and 9 April 2023) so that could be easily worked around. Also the great majority of colleges and universities have spring break sometime in March not April (for next year see link ) and hit each of the five weekends in March 2019.

I think the best argument against an April convention is the one Lon raises about being too close to Historicon and even this might be addressed by keeping it to the first two weekends in April (even the last weekend in March is likely to yield better weather… in like a lion and out like a lamb). And I suppose for some, including some of the vendors, this might pose some tax preparation issues. But it seems to me that neither Easter nor spring break ought not be deal breakers.

shthar26 Mar 2018 6:27 p.m. PST

moving to april competes with Little Wars.

Chuckaroobob26 Mar 2018 10:16 p.m. PST

I drive/fly 400+ miles to Lancaster. In the past years I've cancelled three trips to CW due to bad weather.

historygamer28 Mar 2018 3:23 a.m. PST

" Pat doesnt state why CW was moved to April."

CW was moved to April because of the Easter holiday date at the times and availability of the Host.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP28 Mar 2018 10:27 a.m. PST

Thanks for filing in the blank historygamer.

Grumble8710628 Mar 2018 1:36 p.m. PST

1. The biggest snow in Lancaster was March 21 this year -- three days after CW. (47Ronin: The snow in Lancaster on March 25 was insignificant, BTW.) There was a fairly big snow on Thursday night of CW a few years back – 2015 if my records are accurate. I canceled a game I had planned for that night. The rest of the convention went fine -- for me. I don't know how people driving from out of town were impacted.

2. Should check Passover dates, too.

3. "Springtime for Gamers" should be set to a tune, as in *The Producers*. :-)

4. Getting CW too close to Historicon (so that PEL submissions for Historicon have to happen before CW) would make life more difficult for GM's unless the system for getting the PEL together undergoes a change, thus reducing the lead time needed. I talk to fellow-GM's at CW about what we're going to run at Historicon, and that is valuable information. The conversations could happen by email but it would be clunky.

Xintao29 Mar 2018 12:36 p.m. PST

We have been going to the Host since they moved there(20+ years?). I missed one Fall In because of Super Storm Sandy. I've missed no CW's because of snow. I can only remember driving thru one snow storm to get there. Lets not panic.

War Scorpio29 Mar 2018 3:50 p.m. PST

I say keep it in March, the Host is fine by me.

47Ronin30 Mar 2018 9:01 a.m. PST

It's not a panic move. Many see a move to April as long overdue and in the best interests of HMGS.

BTW, snow is in the forecast in the Northeast for Monday, April 2.

We'll see.

civildisobedience30 Mar 2018 9:20 a.m. PST

For those greedily searching for a Cold Wars or two in April, keep your eyes open, because there were a couple in February, too.

The world can't shut down for five months because of pointless fear of snow. Pushing into April gets closer to Hcon, and it conflicts more with other shows.

I say everyone puts on his big girl panties, and leave it in March, realizing that every so often, we might have some bad weather to deal with.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP30 Mar 2018 3:07 p.m. PST

I say everyone puts on his big girl panties, and leave it in March, realizing that every so often, we might have some bad weather to deal with……

……and maybe invest in some snow tires.

BTCTerrainman Supporting Member of TMP30 Mar 2018 4:40 p.m. PST

I don't think they make snow tires for trailers……I am waiting for the year that I cannot make it or get home due to snow (or worse wind up in a ditch or some other form of wreck – not to mention they often close the turnpike to trailers in snot now….). I really hate the show when it is early in March because the weather can be such a wild card over a long distance.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 5:53 a.m. PST

"The world can't shut down for five months because of pointless fear of snow. Pushing into April gets closer to Hcon, and it conflicts more with other shows.
I say everyone puts on his big girl panties, and leave it in March, realizing that every so often, we might have some bad weather to deal with."

Yeah, that's a super easy position to take as an attendee; if a blizzard rolls in, you just blow off the convention, but for the dealers, this is our livelihood and if we do the same, we lose thousands of dollars in sales, not to mention the associated costs of booth rentals and van rentals that we then have to eat.

OR, this; "I am waiting for the year that I cannot make it or get home due to snow (or worse wind up in a ditch or some other form of wreck – not to mention they often close the turnpike to trailers in snow now….)."

It all depends on what angle you're working when it comes to these conventions. I'd be all for an idea that was floated awhile ago; get rid of one of the three and just run two, CW would get my vote for the convention that gets whacked.

If the hobby keeps contracting, it will happen eventually anyway.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 8:16 a.m. PST

I don't think they make snow tires for trailers

I don't either. But make sure you have good tires on the trailer, have a good braking system, and have snow tires on the car/truck/van. And drive according to the conditions. You know, the common sense stuff you have to do when driving in winter anyway.

And George, I think you missed Civil's point. He wasn't condoning "blowing off the convention", something the vendors are understandably loath to do. He was chastising those who whine about blowing off the conventions due to risk of snow.

If the hobby keeps contracting, it will happen eventually anyway.

Let's wait till then before killing off Cold Wars.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 9:20 a.m. PST

If the hobby keeps contracting, it will happen eventually anyway.

The only convention that I knew was contracting was Historicon – you know – the one "The Dud" wants to keep in FB.

civildisobedience02 Apr 2018 7:05 a.m. PST

Uh oh. Snow in April. Better move Cold Wars to May. Luke Warm Wars, maybe?

dapeters02 Apr 2018 8:28 a.m. PST

"because there were a couple in February, too." I think CD is right the first one I went to in the early 90's

historygamer02 Apr 2018 9:50 a.m. PST

Not sure when the Cold Wars was that was held at Turf Valley Country Club. Maybe that one.

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