"Historicon vs Adepticon" Topic

Another post said re; Adepticon: "HMGS-M and The Wargaming Company were running some historical games along with Crucible Crush's Flint and Feather demo games."

Beasts of War shows a company producing 10mm Napoleonics and running demos.

IF…

Adepticon has space for and would accept more historical games, would you go there instead of HCon?

Would you do both?

Would historical games ruin Adepticon and you'd stop going?

(BTW -- How do I create a poll?)

No – it is in Illinois. Not a sour gripes type post either, I'm just not willing to regularly go that far for a game convention.

If it were held closer to East Coast I still most likely would not go – individual even fees is an instant turn off for me. Details matter however so depending on the fees and if they applied to individual games or not may change that answer. Finally games I personally want to play would have to be part of the mix, a few FOW or Bolt Action games would not be a draw for me.

For years the same argument was made about allowing sci fi and fantasy games at Historicon.
Historical oriented games at the Illinois show will get more paid attendees at the door. Cover your costs to have another show.

And because of Historicon's location, I will never attend. I hate driving East, especially on a vacation, so I would greatly appreciate if Adepticon encouraged more historical games.

Well, Little Wars is in the Chicago Area, so that's an option. Personally, although I used to live in Schaumburg and still have family there, I don't have a strong desire to attend. It seems really expensive for me, given what I would get out of it. I may go one of these years just to see (and shop) but it's never going to be a fixture on my calendar

I went to it for the first time yesterday. Man, it's huuuuge! So glad! ;-)

It's only 1 1/2 hours away from me, as opposed to Historicon which is 17-18 hours by car. Last time I bothered to drove to H-con was 2008. Would likely have done so again this summer, but between Little Wars and Adepticon (and Rock Con), I may not ever get to H-con again. There were enough dealers selling historical stuff that I managed to blow a small fortune in less than an hour. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Miniature Building Authority!) I hope the powers that be that run A-con expand the historical aspect more. Talk about cornering the Midwest convention market….

To be honest--maybe. I certainly won't go without historical gaming and dealers, and on paper you're 5-6 hours from Fort Wayne while Historicon is 10-11. But the truth is, you'd face the same problem I have with Little Wars--really bad memories of trying to get around Chicago. I'll go to the SYWA Convention in South Bend without a second thought. You should only be an hour further--but it would be a really rough hour.

If I could pay for gas while someone else drove, sure. But again, ONLY for historical games. If I wanted fantasy and SF, I could walk to Pentacon.

Robert you may want to check your maps. I make that run in about 3.5 to 4 hours a few times a year. That stretch on 30 with a stoplight every few blocks is akin to waterboarding though.

For those worrying about expenses or not familiar with this con, Adepticon entry is free unless you wish to play in games or enter the painting contest. So no paying an entry fee for the privilege of spending money with vendors.

I've been to this show a number of times and it keeps getting better every year. More historical games, more vendors, and currently in a very good and convenient facility. The only issue I've experienced is parking as the show continues to expand.

Doctor X "Robert you may want to check your maps. I make that run in about 3.5 to 4 hours a few times a year. That stretch on 30 with a stoplight every few blocks is akin to waterboarding though".

I hope you are not taking route 30 between Gettysburg and York (assuming this is what you are talking about). Much better options coming from the West and I-81. We come up I-81 to Carlise, catch the turnpike to 283 (just east of the Susquehanna), and then run that to 30 at Lancaster. From Carlise it is only about 1.1 hours.

Hard for us to pursue a conversation about routes and times Doctor X. That degree of anonymity complicates matters.

A lotta games workshop stuff on thier event list. Not a good sign.

This is a show to make MONEY. Those shows are never very appreciative of historical miniatures, until thier attendance levels off and they start looking to see where they can increase it.

You want historical miniatures in chicago, go to Little Wars.

BTC – The part of 30 I am talking about is from Schaumburg, IL (Adepticon) to Roberts stated vicinity (Fort Wayne, IN).

Robert – I wasn't looking for a conversation on two fixed points and the distance between them. Just stating facts. I'm not sure what anonymity has to do with time and distance.

Google Maps confirms my experience of driving that route a number of times. Here is the link:

link

It's my understanding that Adepticon started as a GW-focused convention. But in 2010, they expanded their line-up.

From their "2009 Perspective" --

"Rest assured AdeptiCon Organizers, Staff, and Volunteers are going to continue to build on the solid foundation from the past 8 years. We will continue to focus on creating a high caliber Games Workshop hobby experience.

2010 will also see the addition of new game systems to our lineup of events – Flames of War by Battlefront, Warmachine, Hordes, and Monsterpocalypse from Privateer Press, new offerings from Fantasy Flight Games, as well as more opportunities for mini-events, demos and open gaming."

So if this continues, and more historical games and vendors are accepted, could we finally have a major centrally-located miniatures convention?

All,

Drove down to Adepticon this weekend for a few hours since I had never seen the event. Will likely go again.

Missed a linkup with friends but was impressed as heck with the convention setup, energy, and was a little surprised by the number of vendors selling historical products (eg Knuckleduster) and there were certainly plenty of crossover products for sale (eg airbrushes, paints, bases, MBA). Didn't see but a couple historical games (Flint & Feather demos and some 10mm Naps). Saw the HMGS-Midwest cadre were putting on games, some historical others not… that last part has me stumped.

Since I am almost exclusively a historical gamer I can't speak to all the various tournaments, etc… but damn there was a lot of nice kit… everywhere. And I saw a lot of faces I recognized as historical gamers.

Venue was huge, nothing at all cramped or in a dark corner. Parking was a little bit of an issue since there were so many cars; I heard it was over 3000 paid attendees. You only pay if you are playing in games or are in their version of a flea market – otherwise you wander, buy stuff, and talk for free.

Didn't mean to offend, Dr X. I always verify when I can--and I was hoping for another wargamer at this end. From your profile, you might never have seen either state. Nice to hear you confirm Google Maps. My experience in the DC/Baltimore region was that such things were useless for time estimates in urban areas. So, maybe Little Wars next year. Thanks.

Schogun, in a country 3,000 miles by 2,000 "centrally located" would mean "equally inaccessible to just about everyone" or, to put it another way, "Lebanon, Kansas."

link

Look, I'm 10 or 11 hours each way from Lancaster, and I'm not any happier about it than anyone else. But the United States is not England or even the UK. We have no London we can all reach in one day's travel. I don't know where you could move Historicon to and have more wargamers within reach. Could we just work on having the best conventions we can in each region and stop complaining that it's somehow unfair that areas with larger population densities get bigger conventions?

Robert – no offense taken. I blame the internet…

Carry on!

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Personally I wouldn't chose Adepticon or Origins over Historicon because those are both during the school year and I already plan days to be at Fall-In and Cold Wars. I'll get to Adepticon at some point in my life but it won't be cheap as I'd probably fly instead of driving 12 hours and is certainly something that requires a lot more planning on my part.

"This is a show to make MONEY"

Actually… they don't charge people to just shop, and the flea market they have is free and also doesn't require a badge to take part in. That is the very opposite of not being focused on making money. If they wanted to only make money every one that entered would be required to buy a badge. The only people required to buy a badge are those playing a game. What a fantastic concept for the day tripper who just wants to shop.

What Historicon brings is a wealth of scenario based games covering a huge range of time periods and within that criteria Adepticon cannot touch Historicon. Looking at the event list I saw maybe a dozen or 15 historical scenario games and of those, only a few rules sets were presented. Historicon will have a few hundred historical scenario games and is the best place to go play around with new periods or try out a new set of rules. Adepticon can expand a lot and still not match that.

I support Adepticon expanding with more historicals, but I think Historicon has a solid place with it's game focus.

Adepticon would be an impossible distance for me. The trip from Philly to Fredericksburg was about my limit.

Adepticon. Historicon is too far to go and the facilities aren't that thrilling. The Adepticon support staff are stellar! They bust their behinds to give the vendors and the participants the best experience possible. Adepticon gets better every year. My experience with Historicon is that it is stagnant and not changing.

I run historical and science fiction games at both Adepticon and Little Wars. HMGS-Midwest runs games at Adepticon…and runs Little Wars. The two organizations cooperate very nicely. Most of my purchases at Adepticon this year were from Footsore Miniatures, Battlefront and Badger Games – all historical items.

I think far more gamers are open to playing both historical and non-historical games these days, so Adepticon is well-positioned and smart to continue to expand its historical offerings. There's a lot of energy and enthusiasm behind this convention.

But there's room for both conventions :)

As someone who has been to both over the last 4 years, I still prefer Historicon. Lot of it is the fees to enter and play games, though I have been invited to play in a few games that have space. When I went into the HMGS room at Adepticon, I counted how many historical games were running and the answer was 2 – a small DBA tournament and one large ECW game using Black Powder. The rest of the room was filled with fantasy and sci-fi gaming. Not a problem, but definitely not historical.

Adepticon seems to be much more tournament oriented, while Historicon is much more a individual games. They are different but both welcome.

Yes I do drive from Baltimore so it is 1.5 hours to Lancaster or Fredericksburg and 13 hours to Schaumberg.

So… the real question is… where would a wargame scenario set in North Africa, 1943, using correct forces and equipment for the time period, fighting over terrain similar to what exists in that region, but which is fictional in that it wasn't a real historical battle, go… Adpeticon? or Historicon?

I vote for either one as long as its well run and fun.

(For the record, HMGS-M's 1938 Fulda Gap scenario run at Aepticon this year would not fall into this catagory as they had M8 Armored Cars in a 1938 scenario with T26s… no M8s in 1938. C'mon HMGS-M you guys know better. I'd give you six months leeway and say "okay", but the M8 was introduced in 1943.)

"IF… Adepticon has space for and would accept more historical games"
They do and they will!

I've been to Adepticon for 4 years now and run my generic 28mm MEGA "Mech Attack" game each of those years. Alot of folks still think of them as a GW convention. GW is still HUGE but that's just not the case anymore. There's a ridiculously huge array of games payed and while It's certainly not primarily a historical gig, but there's quite a bit of historical gaming over the weekend. The only reason there's not more is because more folks aren't signing up to run more historical games.

If you want to run an event there you just have to apply, and they will usually approve it, give you prize support and give you (and possibly other helpers) free admission and credit that can be spent on a Swag Bag (amazing amount of free stuff) or other Adepticon Merch.

Historicon isn't a draw for me but I used to go to Little Wars. I plan to go back someday, but my schedule usually only permits one gaming con in the spring and Adepticon is it for me.

The only reason there's not more is because more folks aren't signing up to run more historical games.

That's not my experience. It's also because no one signs up for the historical games. I've run two games that had zero people sign up. One of the games I ran later at Historicon and won a PELA for. The other game was photographed by the then editor of Wargamers Illustrated and became an article in that magazine. The only game that had sign ups was a Victorian Sci-Fi game using GASLIGHT. A bit closer to their comfort zone, I suppose.

I do enjoy Adepticon, but I found the typical Sci-Fi attendee had only a passing interest in anything historical. If I was forced to choose between the two, Historicon would be the my choice.

It was a few years ago, that we at HMGS-Midwest talked with Adepticon and Hank Edley.  There was an understanding to have our GM's put on open miniature games, in order to increase the historical presence, at the con.  This is good for us as well, because it helps to show the flag, to other miniature gamers.  

It takes time to develop the demand.  You have to have a product before you can build brand awareness.  Over the years average game attendance has risen to 6 players per game.  This is good a sign, and our GMs are encouraged, and will be back next year.  We will be also looking for other GMs to go through these growing pains with us.  "If you run it, they will come", has been our mantra.

HMGS-Midwest has been doing the same nurturing with Alex Kammer at Gamehole Con, in Madison.  With Luke Gygax at Garycon, and also at Gencon, the program is in a mature state.  Our games have 80% fill rate (over 500 player hours) with Garycon, and at Gencon we are close to 90% (just over 900 player hours).

Bowman, I wish we knew your were going to be running.  If you try again next year let us know, we would love to have you join us.

WargamingUSA.  For the record, it would have been informative for you to be on hand for the scenario briefing. The game takes the geopolitical situation of the 80's and matches it with roughly 1938 technology.  The forces involved were organized either under the US H-Series TO&E, or the Soviet Unified Corps (‘Operational Maneuver Group' in NATO parlance). It also assumed, that there was a general military build up, in the years, prior to the trip wire event.  This allowed me to incorporate the M8, in the game.  I am surprised your critical eye did not catch the M3 Lees, (1941), the Breakthrough Company of T-34 Model 1940 (1940).  The prototypes; TR-26 (APC built on a T-26 hull), RTB-5 (Turret mounted 2x420mm rockets on a BT-5), or the T-55 3" GMCs. As a rule we do know better, but this was a fun game to run and play.  Hopefully you will join me next time.

We have also been known to do a number of (gasp) Middle Earth games.  This year they were all set in the First Age.

As to an answer to the topic question?  Go to both!

Hey Kevin, i did see some of those other, errr, discrepancies… just chose one for example, we can talk about it all offline.

My point is while the Cold War Fulda Gap scenario was an overlay for a circa 1938 battle, some of the technology you're representing as available in 1938, well, wasn't available. Not really a big deal unless someone is really committed to absolute historical accuracy. My thought was as a 1938 era game, put on by the "Historical" Miniautres Gaming Society, maybe things could/should be more accurate. Generally, facts are what separate history from fantasy and sci-fi… one could also argue it also separates fun gamers from grumpy old grognards depending on perspective.

Every year those 15mm figs get harder for me to see… especially the earth tone paint schemes… so if I play it may require a telescope and magnifying glass so I don't end up causing a friendly fire incident! :)

I stopped doing 6mm, just for that same fact. Too many "blue on blue" incidents. Perhaps next year we do 28mm?