"Cold Wars Friday Night Flea Market Experiment " Topic

"George, you are one of a handful of dealers who consistently brings new product to the conventions, works to present it well, engages in extensive pre-con preparation including coordination with customers, and always talks with folks who come up to your booth. In other words you run your business, well, like a business. You deserve to do well."

Thanks for the kind words Bill, I appreciate it.

Anyone who knows me well knows I treat my business like a business, been at this full time for 20 years, rode out the economic downturn after the stock market crashed thanks to the housing bubble bursting and moved onward and upward ever since.

Anyone who knows me well ALSO knows I enjoy what I do, have fun at what I do and also have an extremely sarcastic/East Coast sense of humor, you either get that or you don't, the VAST majority of my posts on this and other forums are dripping with sarcasm.

My Dad died a year ago February, the 23rd to be exact; I'm not the same person today that I was before he passed away,
I still have my sense of humor, but I also look at life a lot differently now than I did prior to February 23rd, 2017.

As far as the flea market/dealers and this moronic Crips/Bloods, Hatfields/McCoys, Billy Yank/Johnny Reb feud that has existed the past few years; as a dealer, flee all you want, sell all the unwanted junk of yours all you want, have a ball.

The VAST majority (as in 99%) of you sell in the true spirit of the flee market; you sell unwanted items and then turn that money into purchases in the dealer hall. Customers of mine like Mike Sarmarco, Jim Lombardi, Jeff Panyi, Rick Sturkle and many others who were in the Friday night session selling at almost EVERY convention stop by my booth and spend money with me, so the system works.

What I DON'T like is the quasi dealers who are in there, like the Field Marshal and his wife who've been peddling bins full of Ospreys since the silent era and others of you who belong in the dealer hall (and you know who you are), you're a member of HMGS, yet you are shorting the organization revenue as you belong in the dealer hall with a booth, not in the flea market with one table for 5 to 7 sessions per convention, one of which is free.

Not up to me to enforce the rules; as I've already stated, the Friday night session worked for me, but if HMGS decides to no longer run nighttime sessions, so be it, I won't be spending money in there, the only people that hurts are the sellers.

And sorry, a "Midnight madness" session is just that, madness; I have a business to run starting at 9:00am on Saturday, so me spending time in that session is a total non starter, not for me, as in no how, no way.

So there you have it; what bothers me the most about all of this is how the dealers are the bad guys in all of this; if we say anything, we're bad guys.

Sorry, we're not bad guys; we're @#$%ing HOBBYISTS just like the rest of you, so think about that the next time you want to throw any of us under the bus for having the nerve to earn a living at this.

I ultimately don't care one way or the other about the flea market and echo a lot of what Double G says. My response earlier was to incorrect information being listed about costs etc. To set the record straight I responded.

And jpipes, there is no longer any $100 USD table in the vendor hall. The other booth costs you cited sound right (they will be much higher for Historicon). Also at CW and FI, we get to sell for a total of 18 hours (not sure where 24 hours came from).

As for the flea market all day long… I don't agree with that as what it WILL BECOME.. is a lot of dealers… right now, if you are in ONE SESSSION…. you should be able to sell your stuff.. IF you are there to sell it and not make a profit…. I am speaking of a regular Joe like me…. I was in 2 sessions and shared a table… after session one I was pretty much sold out. I price my stuff to MOVE, not "recoup" or "profit"….

We're not allowed to make a profit?
That's depressing. And insulting. Does that mean I can't sell painted figures for more than nude lead costs? Who's going to enforce that? Geez, I bought those Hinchliffe figures back in 1983 for less than $.50 USD each. I'm not going to give the damn things away.

Saying I should not plan to make a profit (I didn't, by the way; I sold one unit of the army I brought down ), is to say that my painting devalued an otherwise fine casting of lead.

I did get rid of some final stuff for the Warhammer project that never got off the ground. Now I am Warhammer free.

Doug, I got that info directly from the HMGS vendor guide and from the convention direct himself. I would hope it's correct. The director literally just pointed out after my post that sellers in the flea market have long since been paying more and getting less selling time in the process. It's not a matter of getting by on the cheap. They are actually paying more.

Double G, you stated you didn't know why there is some ongoing feud between the dealer area and the flea market. There isn't. What you see as a feud others understand to simply be an attempt to correct a misperception, or misinformation, about how things work and why. For example.

You just stated rather generically:

"…you're a member of HMGS, yet you are shorting the organization revenue as you belong in the dealer hall with a booth, not in the flea market with one table for 5 to 7 sessions per convention, one of which is free."

But as has been pointed out a number of times already, people in the flea market actually pay HMGS more than if they got a similar table in the dealer hall. Have you read any of these posts? It's this sort of misinformation that leads others to rightly counter statements you've made. They are flat out wrong. Your entire premise is incorrect.

If your main beef with "secret dealers" is that they are selling in the flea market under the guise of saving money, that is incorrect. It's also a bigger pain in the butt to sell in the flea market so the ONLY incentive must be something else… could it be what I already outlined above? Go and read what I wrote so I don't have to type it again. Estate sale versus a shopping mall. Some of us prefer the former.

"Double G, you stated you didn't know why there is some ongoing feud between the dealer area and the flea market. There isn't."

Yes there is. Comments here for example about how upset people were that the afternoon session was moved to night; that the dealers were behind it, it's the dealers fault.

Just because you say there isn't a feud doesn't mean there is not one, you're blind if you don't think so.

And it's pathetic and sad to be frank.

"But as has been pointed out a number of times already, people in the flea market actually pay HMGS more than if they got a similar table in the dealer hall. Have you read any of these posts?"

Yes I've read them, I can read. You keep talking about tables; there are no longer individual tables for sale, we've gone over to booths, maybe you didn't get the memo. A booth is not sold by the table, booths for Historicon at the early bird rate are 260.00; for 260.00, you get a 10 by 10 spot and one 8 foot table, if you want a second table, it's 10.00 for a total of 270.00. Again, that's the early bird rate, it goes up the later you pay.

If you do all 6 sessions at Historicon, it's 125.00 as the 6th session on Sunday is free. If you throw in your HMGS membership fee, it's still less than 270.00.

Aren't we talking about Cold Wars? Why are you loving the goal posts?

And a seller in the flea market for 6 sessions at Hcon would be paying $175 USD not $125. USD

If there is a feud it's because people like you keep wanting to tell other people where they should or should not be and what they should or should not be selling. Last I read you were not even planning to attend Hcon. Maybe you should focus on your own business versus worrying about who sells what when and where.

Just a point of (maybe) clarification. According to the Historicon website, there are 4 Wally's Basement sessions available for paid reservations (Fri. AM & PM, Sat. AM & PM) with Sun. AM still being free. That's 4×$25=$100. (HMGS annual membership and convention registration are, of course separate/additional fees). I seem to recall at least one Thurs. Flea Market session in bygone days, but I don't see any Thursday sessions listed on the website. Possibly the website is mistaken. Lord knows my memory could be :^)

The cheapest available dealer space at Hcon 2018 is $180. USD The cost for a full sweet of flea market sessions is $175. USD and that's for less time to sell and more restrictions on doing so. Oh and th dealer spot comes with two passes. Tell me again how secret dealers are swindling HMGS out of money?

But if it would make Double G happy, I will donate an extra $5 USD to HMGS to cover the difference.

Problem solved?

"Aren't we talking about Cold Wars? Why are you loving the goal posts?
And a seller in the flea market for 6 sessions at Hcon would be paying $175 USD USD not $125. USD USD
If there is a feud it's because people like you keep wanting to tell other people where they should or should not be and what they should or should not be selling. Last I read you were not even planning to attend Hcon. Maybe you should focus on your own business versus worrying about who sells what when and where."

We had booths at Cold Wars too, but don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

Last time I checked, 270.00 is more than 175.00 and where are you getting 6 sessions from for Historicon? Thursday by 1, Friday by 2, Saturday by 2 is five, Sunday is free, is it not?

And I'm on the fence about Historicon 2019, I've already paid for Historicon 2018.

So you're wrong.

Twice.

People like me? Really Jason?

You think you know me and what I'm all about, you've put 2 and 2 together and in your mind, you think you got 4, but you actually ended up with 22.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on; I hope that is clear to you.

And as far as that 5.00…………….yeah, let's just move on.

There is nothing to disagree about, you are flat out incorrect and even the convention director has said so.

Facts are facts.

It's as much to get a full set of flea market spaces at Hcon as it is to get the cheapest dealer space which affords TWO passes more time to sell and less restrictions.

If this is your main issue, it's moot.

5 sessions x 25 + 25 entrance fee + 25 membership fee = $175. USD. Add another 25 if you want someone to help you at your table.

Cheapest dealer space Hcon 2018, 180 which includes 2 free show passes.

175 versus 180.

Yes, indeed let's move on.

".yeah, let's just move on."

"Yes, indeed let's move on."

You and I finally agree on something.

There's hope for humanity yet.

goo.gl/images/ExTdDP

After painfully reviewing each of the posts,
the take away for Cold Wars and Fall In are

The Showroom is great
The Showroom needs more lighting
The Afternoon and Evening flea market sessions for Friday would be great
The Morning,Afternoon and Evening flea market sessions for Saturday would be great too… ( ok I just added that)

And lastly
The flea market and the dealers , well I'm going with George on this one, are the Hatfields/McCoys….

-Mike

I'll see you at Havoc Mike, sort of surprised to see no gaming at all downstairs, they got rid of three dealer booths and all the gaming will be upstairs.

Speaking of dealers, looks like there are just three of us.

I have a bad feeling this might be all she wrote as far as Havoc, looks like Huzzah has taken over in the MA/NH/ME area.

Going up there is a non starter for me…………………

@Winston, please.. .you are deliberately twisting my words to further an agenda…

Yes, you are allowed to make a profit… that is silly and I never said you couldn't. But if you are, that would also imply you are there as a dealer too… even a professional flea marketer is a dealer of sorts…

Typically, remember, I am saying typically…. a flea market is to unload unwanted and disused stuff… usually at a loss or pretty decent price break… Remember, you can buy online for up to 20% off at a lot of places… Selling new stuff in the flea at anything less than that doesn't mean you are a dealer, but everyone else is thinking you are.

If you are in the flea market to make a profit.. IN MY OPINION…. that means you are shopping outside the shows to get product to sell for a profit at the shows… you are a dealer. Please do not be offended… That is MY opinion, I respect yours without getting angry.

Folks in the flea are looking for deals… if you are selling to make a profit, that sounds like selling for more than "cost", not necessarily retail (MSRP)…. as I mentioned… I decided to unload some 15 year old GW 40K figures… I just happened to have them and they are sought after now… go me…. but if I wanted to make money, they would have been put on eBay… Remember, I am NOT saying you cannot make a profit, but you might need to rethink where you are selling as the dealer hall might be better for you, even if it is old or used stuff you are selling.

Now, if you are a gamer and found a treasure in your collection you want to get rid of.. bless you, try to sell it… someone might buy it, but if you are selling it in the flea for more than original retail… well… I don't know… do what you want, but I would think you would make more money from eBay.

Also, after reading all of the posts… dealers might not like the flea and the flea sellers might not like the dealers, but I often see both shopping in both areas… Double G… I have never seen you as bashing the flea and Pipes… you shop in the dealer hall.

Now.. as I stated… the future pricing will be different.. .but I very flatly stated that "for the last 10 or so years" it has been more expensive to be in the flea than the dealer…. that is true and not one of you can deny it, the math is there…. the big thing is the second badge…. in the old pricing, a dealer got 2 badges… to equal that, the flea market person would have to up another 25 for a membership for the second guy and another $25 USD for show attendance… that adds $50 USD to the apples to apples argument.

Apples to apples in the old style: at Fall In!
Note: Flea tables used to be $20 USD and Dealers used to be $90 USD or $100 USD

1 6' table in the flea with 2 attendants:
$25 USD table x 3 sessions, memberships x2 ($50), show badge $20 USD x2 on sight (assume early pre reg price break)….

$165 USD for 12 hours… (I added in 3 hrs for the free session)

1 6' table with 2 attendants for the weekend.

$110 USD for what Double G said… 18 hours….

ARGUEMENT OVER.

Moving forward… it will not be so… Do the dealers think this is some conspiracy by the flea market folks to get rid of them? Do not be silly! of course it wasn't.

"Moving forward… it will not be so… Do the dealers think this is some conspiracy by the flea market folks to get rid of them? Do not be silly! of course it wasn't."

I don't see it that way at all; I see it as the other way around, the flee market sellers think the dealers want to get rid of the flee market.

As a dealer who comes to the shows solo, all I want is a shot at some of the items in the flea market, which is impossible for me as I can't leave my booth unattended and walk to the flea market and shop. I picked up some nice 20mm figures and vehicles for my collection Friday night (thanks Jim).

The best flea market arrangement at any convention I've attended as a dealer was at the VFCC where they were side by side, my booth was at the end of an aisle and I had a chance to go over to the flee market on several occasions, I bought some nice terrain from one seller and some nice vehicles and figures from several others, but the score of all scores was the 3,000 or so Der Kriegspielers I picked up from a seller who used to sell those figures in his store before it closed, it was a huge find for me, I was able to flush out my 20mm Russian and Austrian Napoleonic armies.

As far as your comments about flee market sellers who run around between conventions and buy collections and such and then flip them in the flee market; just an example of someone seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it, it's the American way, capitalism and all that.

It's not like that person is some Wyle E Coyote super genius to come up with the idea, good for him, congrats, sort of like Crapgame from Kelly's Heroes. While the rest of the US Army was fighting to liberate Europe from the Germans, he was running a side business peddling whatever he could get his hands on ("We haven't reported him dead yet, I've been collecting his whiskey); at the end of the day, if the items he's selling are going to gamers who want them and are happy to get the items, that's all that matters.

I really can't see a person like that being forced to sell in the dealer hall, he's a "flipper" to use a flee market term, buy low, sell high. The dealer hall is for dealers, people who are selling brand new items, who rep certain lines and who bring all the latest and greatest items to the convention, or professional figure painters who paint from show to show, it's not a place for someone who buys in between shows and that is his way of gathering inventory.

To be frank, there are some dealers who belong in the flea market based on their offerings and booth set ups, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I understand your overall point though………….so despite what anyone thinks, speaking for myself I don't want the flee market to go away as I could show you raftloads of items I've bought for my collection that were it not for the flea market, I would have never had the opportunity to buy them.

I always appreciate your comments, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts…………..

Having established that flea market sellers aren't getting away with paying less than dealers in the dealer hall (one of the ongoing contentions from various dealers), and that flea market sellers are getting less perks and amenities with more restrictions, why should it matter what reason they have for wanting to sell where they want? The two areas are entirely different and attract different people for different reasons.

I promise you a full fledged dealer would do poorly in the flea market, and a grab bag, painted army, 2 for a dollar book seller will do poorly in the dealer hall. They both cater to different buyers that shop in different environments.

Based on Double G's last post, I would say we are much closer in views than previously imagined.

We are of the same mind on this. Double G desires to access the flea market, I absolutely get that. I too believe the best solution would be to have both groups in the same area and I have no problem with doing so. I also believe (as I just said in my last sentence of my last post) that as things are currently structured, some dealers would not do well in the flea market and some flea marketers would not do well in the dealer hall. Trying to force one to sell in the other is silly, invasive, and counter productive.

All that said, if the two areas are never merged, saying you sell in the dealer hall but miss the flea market so the flea market times should be changed is like saying I sell in the flea market but miss the speaker seminars so the seminar times should be changed. Bottom line, we all have to make choices what to do when and where. That may entail missing stuff we'd otherwise like to do. But I am all for merging the flea market and dealer hall into one more or less central area. I'm all for that.

"Based on Double G's last post, I would say we are much closer in views than previously imagined."

I'm glad you get it; others don't, but I'm at the point where I give up trying to reach them.

A vibrant flee market is a convention draw, no doubt about it. That flee market session Friday night looked vibrant to me, not sure how any of you did compared to the same session on a Friday afternoon, but I saw a number of dealers in there who normally would not be in there during the day, not sure how that all translated into sales.

And I've seen countless examples of customers of mine come to me after a session and buy items with cash and tell me "I'll see how I do in the next session and maybe I'll be back to buy more in the afternoon," so don't tell me it does not function as intended, ie, sell off unwanted goods and then use that money to buy things you do want.

And at the end of the day, the vast majority of sellers in there are not making a profit; as Dan pointed out, they are losing money, something they paid retail for is being sold off at a fraction of the original cost, so I don't want to hear about how flee market sellers are making a killing as one dealer whined to me. They're losing money every sale but making it up in volume according to him, that's some real solid thinking there. How about this; worry about things you can control, like having proper stock levels and being sure you take credit cards, not "CASH ONLY!", this is 2018, not 1918.

Numerous people have chimed in on this forum saying the flee market is the #1 reason why they go to the conventions. That's a bit much for me as I'd think the #1 reason people attend a wargaming convention is to wargame, but what do I know because as many of you know, I'm not a wargamer, I'm a collector.

If they can't coordinate things in the new Historicon location to have us side by side, I'd like to see one morning session and one evening session on Friday and Saturday at Historicon in 2019.

Again, just me, but that would give myself and other dealers two chances to shop and maybe a Saturday night session would give people a reason to stick around as it looks to me like a lot of attendees blow out of Dodge on Saturday night at these events.

If it turns out they cannot be side by side and the format is two morning and two afternoon sessions on Friday and Saturday, then so be it, I'll go without buying in the flee market is all.

Regardless of the way it works out, life goes on; again, something I learned when my Dad passed away…………

Wow… good calls on both of you two.. I am officially at a loss for words… kind of, lol!

Thank you guys! I know I am not always right (far from it), but I am trying to make things amendable. It seems your views are a lot closer than others think.

"Thank you guys! I know I am not always right"…….

I'd say a lot more than you think…….;).

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts as you always bring solid points to the discussion.

Hey, Dan, I think I have a scenario for Fall-In: entrenched vendors fight off waves of scavenging free-marketers.
Whattaya think?

"Hey, Dan, I think I have a scenario for Fall-In: entrenched vendors fight off waves of scavenging free-marketers.
Whattaya think?"

That's awesome, keep the great ideas coming.

"He'll be here all night folks, two drink minimum, tip your waitresses and try the veal"………………..

Somehow I fell a joke went over my head here….

"Somehow I fell a joke went over my head here…."

Wargaming humor; it's an acquired taste.

Would it spoil the joke if if it wasn't _completely_ a joke?

I liked the flow pattern of "Wallys Attic". I can see the need for an elevator. That being said I really don't have a dog in the fight. I don't really care that much about the flea market or seeing the same tired stuff people are trying to hawk show after show. I'll spend my money on vendors who use it for a primary or secondary income… That's what keeps the gaming community alive and growing…

The Friday night FM looked to be a success to me. I was there and I even bought a few things from gamers selling collections.

To be honest, if the Flea Market was actually used for what it was intended – members clearing out old projects or collections – then I don't think any dealer would have any issue with it. The problem is that there are a bunch acting as dealers and the biggest issue is the rules are not enforced.

However, it has become, for some, a business.

I have no issue allowing dealers at a night FM that doesn't compete with the dealer hall.

But if it during the day, it should follow the FM rules.
According to the rules, you shouldn't be:

- selling multiple products in shrink-wrap (1 ok, but more than 1 for a half dozen or more products tends to light up the "shadow dealer" sign)

- Selling stock from behind or under the table. (sorry big organized displays and multiple items of the same sku, homemade or not, you are a "shadow dealer."

- taking charge cards with PayPal, stripe, square etc.

- Reserving tables and going from day to day with the same tables.

Dealers have an issue with rules being enforced. They aren't and there is no reason why they should not be.

There were clearly sellers who were either dealers or acting as dealers, many selling brand new product close to normal selling prices to a 10-20% discount.
There were others that were professional painters.

And sorry to say that the dealer hall is a virtual ghost town for the first hour of every session held during dealer hours. Does that affect sales? Yes, has to as there are less customers.

My sales were up on Friday afternoon and overall for the con. While that is a trend (excluding Historicon in 2017, 2014-2015) My sales on Friday were up CW over CW and Saturday was about the same as usual. I am not sure if it is solely because of no FM on Friday afternoon or not. It is not easy to determine for anyone especially if sales are trending upwards.

The solution to the FM issue is easy.

Change the Flea Market to a Bring and Buy.

No cost to sell anything unless it sells. Club takes a 10% vig on all sales.
Drop the items you want to sell a B&B desk clearly labeled and with a desired price and a lowest price you would take. HMGS staff sells it for you. You return Saturday morning or Saturday night for your money. In the meantime you get to game and shop.

This is what they do in the UK and in many other U.S. cons. I am not sure why it has never been done here. And shadow dealers are eliminated from selling.

No cost to sell anything unless it sells. Club takes a 10% vig on all sales.

At that point you may as well just throw it on ebay, get charged the same fee (or less depending on factors) and reach potentially thousands more people.

"At that point you may as well just throw it on ebay, get charged the same fee (or less depending on factors) and reach potentially thousands more people."

This works at cons across the U.S. and in the biggest wargaming country as percentage of population there is – the U.K.
HMGSE is just stuck in it's ways in many things.
It doesn't make either of them right or wrong.

Ebay still has a credit card/pp fee to deal with, and packing and shipping it out.
Everyone is always free to do that.

- taking charge cards with PayPal, stripe, square etc.
Every year we move closer to a cashless systems. Won't happen in two year, but better start adapting the flea market rules.

And nothing will stop them meeting up later in parking lot and doing the deal there.

The more I read the more I think the Vendors and Flea Market should be right next to each other. Then nobody can complain about where the customers are or aren't, no guesses about where the energy and attention is, the money can flow easily between the two, whoever has products the buyers want will benefit, and its probably easier on the convention staff. Vendors have access to electrical FM sellers don't. Vendors have all the eyeballs and wallets when the FM isn't in session.

Flea Market sessions run for three hours, with no more than two tables per seller per session, and no more than two FM sessions for any seller during the convention, cost $20 USD per table, no displays or racks or signage. If FM sellers take Square or something else so what.

Problem solved (writer ducks to avoid incoming wrath of many).

"If FM sellers take Square or something else so what."

Yeah, this is 2018, paper money as we know it is a dinosaur, at any given time, I've got max 20.00 cash on me. Besides, if you have some vintage high ticket items, someone might not have that much cash on them.

I don't see what the problem is with this in the flea market.

Not to mention some of the vendors don't take credit cards, which is beyond my comprehension, talk about dinosaurs.

My two cents, Friday night start at 8:00pm, more lighting and portable ramps over the stairs from the exterior doors for loading unloading.

>Change the Flea Market to a Bring and Buy.

Real bad idea.
The flee market has a great "vibe" as is.
Like the old school bazaar I love the face to face interaction of selling.

Many times, if they are interested, I work with the buyer to help lower the price. You know, buy another item , buy it right now , don't let them walk away.

Some of my items people thought I would never sell, like my wood block Shako play test kit. But I had to sell it hard as being a good thing! and I was truthful, it was good as it got me in to Shako!

Bring and Buy is bad option all around as it take the personal selling and buying out of the flee market.

For CW and Fall In, Friday afternoon and Friday evening flea market would be the best.

-Mike
PS: some people were talking about selling items out of their rooms, is that allowed? They said it had been done in the past….

I called it "Wally's Penthouse". ;-)

And having a heads up from being there on Friday, I took a flashlight when I went to sell on Sunday. Buyers appreciated being able to see the details on 15mm figures!

Time and again I have read horror stories of Bring and Buys from the UK. It's an awful overwrought idea. Why in the world would I give my stuff to someone else to sell? I want to sell it on my own terms in my own way. When people have questions about stuff, I have the answers not some volunteer. I can answer who made the figures, the method they were painted in, the rules the figures could be used for, suggestions for resources online, etc etc. I can haggle with a seller and make bulk deals. I can offer better prices based on how badly I want to sell something. The list goes on. I will sell my stuff and no one else. Bring and buys will never work and are an awful idea.

As for secret dealers, we still on about that are we? I thought we established that since flea market sellers pay the same and get less, the entire point was sort of moot. Some people just prefer to sell in the flea market. Going on and on about secret dealers getting away with something is absurd. What exactly is it you think they are getting away with Brigadegames? Paying the same as the dealers and getting less perks and less time to sell? The horror!!

Restricting people to what means of payment they can accept is also absurd. I follow the rules, but personally it's none of anyones business what forms of payment a person takes. A purchase is between two people end of story. The entire idea behind limiting what a flea market seller can accept is simply to try and lessen the options they have to sell and the amounts they can make. I routinely do just fine accepting cash and checks, but it's absolutely absurd to suggest if someone takes PayPal that means they are a dealer. And anyone with a cell phone, which is 98% of the entire crowd, can accept credit card payments. This isn't 1994, accepting a credit card is not the sign of being a dealer, it's the sign of understanding basic modern technology. That rule may have made sense 10+ years ago, but it is moot now. Current technology allows anyone with a phone and a bank account to send, receive, and process payments digitally, including credit cards. The days of needing an expensive machine to process credit cards and an expensive account to do so are long gone. The world has changed. Friends can send friends credit card payments for their share of the pizza bill. I should be able to accept whatever form of payment I desire that an interested buyer is willing to offer to take home my stuff.

I was in every flea market session and viewed every table multiple times. I can count on one hand the number of sellers across all sessions that were selling anything that could be classified as shrink product. That's not my area of interest so I don't ask prices on that stuff, but I can assure you it's not being sold at close to retail prices. It just doesn't happen that way as they wouldn't sell their stuff if they did. The vast majority of tables are people selling assortments of used, out of print, collectible, obscure, unwanted, or otherwise odd lot and painted army assortments, not stock pulled from some store shelf and hauled to the show. And doubling back to my earlier point, again, for the 10th time, who cares even if they were? The only thing they are "getting away with" is not having a professional booth in the dealer hall, a space which costs in most cases the same as the flea market but affords more perks with less selling restrictions.

This past Cold Wars I only saw 2 people I thought might be dealers masquerading as Flea Marketers. The guy with a ton of shrinkwrapped GW 40k stuff on 2 tables (and the stage) and the guy next to him with 2 tables full of shrinkwrapped boardgames.

"This past Cold Wars I only saw 2 people I thought might be dealers masquerading as Flea Marketers. The guy with a ton of shrinkwrapped GW 40k stuff on 2 tables (and the stage) and the guy next to him with 2 tables full of shrinkwrapped boardgames."

What about the Field Marshall who peddles bins full of Ospreys session after session, show after show, year after year, I'm sure the Haberdasher in the dealer hall with the 400 tomato boxes full of Ospreys is not too happy about that, he's got the hernia to prove it.

Field Marshall. Haberdasher. Double G is thoughtful enough to provide folks with TMP nicknames should they ever decide to join. Lol!!

As for that impacting people picking tables the next session, most of the time folks that pick a table on Friday get to keep it through the weekend. It's been that way for a long time regardless.

Sorry Jason, THAT has not been my experience as a long, long time flea market Saturday morning seller.

My experience has been…in the past, I'd check in with the staff and they may have had a list of pre-assigned tables. I would typically ask to be placed next to someone else, and they were flexible and reassigned my table…all before Saturday.

Recently, it became a first come first serve. Since people did not leave anything over night, the early bird catches the "worm" as in the table of their choice. Once the staff did arrive, it was fait accompli, and they did not say "Boo".

That is what my experience has been. I probably will not try to sell on Saturday morning in the future if the process remains as it was AND the lighting doesn't improve.

I noted, as did Dan Murawski, that a new elevator may in fact alleviate the access restrictions….if it's done [and inspected and approved] in time for Historicon.

I take Heather at her word, that the BoD did not know about the FM location change/crappy environment. As she told me, had she known, she would have had supplemental lighting brought in.

Dan wrote…

"A Lot of GM's stated they were happy as they did not have that.. "Hey, sorry.. I have to get to the flea".. and then they leave the game…

No.

That should read, a DIFFERENT group [Friday afternoon] of GM's stated they were happy.

A different group of GM's [Friday NIGHT] probably said those words this time.

Any time the convention presents concurrent events, games, painting tutorials, speakers, retail or FM sales…conflicts of what to attend and when will arise for ALL attendees.

It's called making choices.

And sorry to say that the dealer hall is a virtual ghost town for the first hour of every session held during dealer hours. Does that affect sales? Yes, has to as there are less customers.

NO.

THAT is only true if those people who were not present during that hour DID NOT buy at some other TIME what they would have bought at 1000-1100 or 1400-1500 hours [the first hour of the two popular usual FM sessions].

All that is happening is the change in time of when they purchased that item in the dealer hall.

Just my intuitive take, the vast majority of the total attendees to any specific FM session is likely to go through in the first 60-80 minutes. Yes some stragglers will enter over the balance of the session, but compared to the opening rush, its paltry.

Those are of course, the same people draining your dealer hall, for what you describe as an hour.

But to say they won't return at all [or have already been through the dealer hall], over the many hours the Vendors are available is mistaken, IMO.

- taking charge cards with PayPal, stripe, square etc.
Every year we move closer to a cashless systems. Won't happen in two year, but better start adapting the flea market rules.

And nothing will stop them meeting up later in parking lot and doing the deal there.

Agreed.

I have already raised the issue to a BoD member.

Paypal, Venmo, etc…are all methods for PRIVATE, peer to peer transactions.

I have never met any PRIVATE party taking credit cards at garage/estate sales.

Somehow HMGS has come up with a list of proxies for a commercial vice private seller…taking credit cards being one of the litmus tests. Makes sense, because we never encounter anyone except a commercial concern taking CC. So if you have a CC machine/stripe reader, you are probably a professional/commercial concern.

But that is not true with apps like PayPal, Venmo and others….they are used extensively for peer to peer transactions [indeed, Paypal even allows for friends/family transactions without the commercial fees].

So, it may not happen in the next year or so…but it is inevitable.

And all it takes is more people to inquire and advocate for it with the BoD/CD.

And yes, it's already easy to sell via PayPal. Virtually impossible to detect, unlike shrink wrap games, or multiple copies or selling under, behind, over, on the side of tables.

I can't draw a bright line between flea market operating times and game participation (both GMs and players), but I noted that:

1. Friday afternoon and evening the Distlefink was half empty

2. Saturday morning and afternoon the Distlefink was half empty

3. Saturday evening the Distlefink became very busy starting around 6:30pm till about 9:30pm or so. By 10pm it was half empty again.

I liked the space the Showroom provided for shoppers. Glad I did not have to haul stuff up there as a seller. Enough said about the lighting already. Back at the final few Hcons held at the Host the show room was used for gaming, including the stage, and was pretty busy.

Makes sense, because we never encounter anyone except a commercial concern taking CC. So if you have a CC machine/stripe reader, you are probably a professional/commercial concern.

Not necessarily. Square is free for the strip reader. And some people may have access through a completely different business. We recently did an "estate" sale at a convention and used my wife's Tupperware square account to do many transaction.

This may be a gripe but I'm trying to be realistic. I signed up for a Thursday-Friday reservation for HCON. Skipping the application I paid an extra $10 USD per night to go ahead and get the reservation through another vendor. Now two months later I go to TMP and read about Cold Wars. Seems WB has made some changes. And there will be a stair climb. Now I have day where I can't sell except for midnight madness. Well, I'm not doing that because I want a table Fri morning. So I look for the change reservation info. Host doesn't change without cancelation and reapplication. Too late to reapply. Now I'm getting mad. Go HCON sign up. Sign up postponed. Read about parking and construction cacking up the different areas. And issues with food, correct? And then leaving to eat and losing a good parking space. I could get a roommate. Problem solved. What if one of us is a no show? Then we screw the other person. Back to square one. Today I let it go and I feel great. Have fun, guys. Maybe next year will be better. Maybe.

Just a little note for my dealer friends based on the above comments by some. I am using the flea market when I can to get rid of a lot of wargaming stuff accumulated from over 40 years of being a wargamer. Some of you guys used to buy from me and resell product or books etc. When this stuff is mostly gone and ebay will be involved and probably TMP sales I'm done with selling wargame related items. Until then please cut me and others who are doing the same a little slack. I'm not buying much anymore, nor do I buy much in the flea market. I've got no place to put the stuff and I give stuff away whenever I can find a taker. I can't speak for the so called shadow dealers. I am not part of that and it is not my job to police it. So a lot of the old guard is selling off. I would think that's the most compelling reason for the flea market in the first place. And think of all that turnover over 40 years. When I sold something I usually turned around and bought some new stuff especially books, rulesets, and tons of unpainted lead. 40 years worth of sales at cons and that doesn't include mail order either. I know a lot of you personally and I wish you the best sales you have ever had.