"elbow-to-elbow formation and musket fire" Topic

The elbow-to-elbow formation for infantry looks pretty good visually, but I can't imagine it was used during musket fire. The musket itself is quite long weapon and requires a lot of space to operate it.

It works better than you think. I have re-enacted AWI period which kept the same elbow-to-elbow spacing in the ranks. It helps guide on the march and during fire it is not nearly as cramped as you would imagine. If the men turn properly after fire, the reload isn't impeded at all.

They'd turn to the right to load – musket upright. Then facing half-right they'd raise the musket to the present. Then they'd make ready by cocking the hammer. Then they'd just lower the muzzle down to fire. and back to loading.

You can imagine them firing in files of two ranks – the rear poking through the gaps of the front.

Firing three ranks though requires some imagination – it was probably easier with the longer 18th century muskets rather than the shorter 19th century ones.

It requires training, more than most reenactors get, but can be safely done.

That was what made the British so damned good They had tremendous training and discipline . And trust me I am not a Brit fan boy I prefer the French and Allies side and had a minor dabble into Prussians guess its my love of black and blue.

I think once the idea of skirmishing came along, the idea of line units keeping tight formations might have loosened up as well. Certainly as casualties occured, and gaps formed, the need to tighten up might not have been so vigourously enforced.

The third rank may not have shot much, mostly just reloaded for the other ranks and passed the weapon forward.

it was perfectly possible, even re-enactors with a little training achieved this, the fire however delivered in such a dense formation as almost useless inflicting casualties because it was unaimed.

As others said, it is just a matter of training:

During the loading procedure, the muskets are always kept close to the body:

What angle to the side could they fire at?

In the French army about 30 degrees to the right and left.

But I don't know an occasion when this was really practised in combat.

Here you can get a slight idea how it is done (just imagine many more files to the right and left):

YouTube link

Minutes 0:40 to 1:02; 1:57-2:23

(In the short discussion at 1:40 about where to point the musket of the third rank, for once the grenadier was right and his sergent wrong.)

As to the accuracy and casualties, think of it as a long, giant shotgun.
And the target is quite dense and not far at all.
Besides theoretical accuracy of post 1880s weapons in combat, well…
Even look at snippets of modern videos. A lot of bullets, very few hits. Different ways, ends up a bit of the same.
Tthey have, say two-3 shots at best against a determined attack, it is a lot about timing, nerves (veterans) and discipline ( hence the brits from Dettingen, thru napo till Alma…) and training.( money then) plus a bit about powder quality ( missfires etc.).
In games then how many + and – we give and what impact, another story.

It doesn't actually take that much training to do it. I've always been amazed by the fact that you can take a brand new reenactor, stick him the ranks surrounded by veteran reenactors and by the end of a single weekend they can march, load and fire nearly as well as the veterans. Of course doing this while being shot at is another matter. But the basic mechanics are pretty straight forward. As for the notion that formations would somehow 'loosen up' during firing, nope, that's not going to happen. A battalion deployed in line, elbow to elbow, takes up a certain amount of frontage. There are friendly units on either side. To give more room to the men would require the line to get longer. One of the jobs of the officers and NCOs is to make sure that doesn't happen. Loading and firing while elbow to elbow really isn't a problem.

Important stream of posts – hopefully a small step to correcting the modern fashion for basing the figures too far apart.

Didn't the switch to two ranks reinforce the need to maintain elbow to elbow touch?

Hm, Dennewitz re – enactment, the smallest soldier should be in the middle and not the rear, tallest front, smallest middle and the rest in the third rank.

The opened fire at much longer distance than the usual Hollywood immage
Fire had also effect on morale

"Die feindlichen Kanonenkugeln sprangen ä la Ricochette dicht an der linken Flügelspitze unserer Masse vorbei auf das Grenadierbataillon des zweiten Regiments, welches sogleich einige Mann verlor. Wir deployirten darauf unsere Massen und begrüssten die rasch anmarschirende feindliche Infanterie aufs Beste mit einem wohl unterhaltenen Rottenfeuer, so dass sie auf 7 — 800 Schritte vor uns doch stehen blieb.

Legler, p.28
Very interesting, so the units deployed form close column into line to reduce the effect of artillery and then they greeted the adavancing enemy with a well norished fire of files so that the enemy stopped 7 to 800 paces in front of them!!
So – at what range did they open their musketry – 1000 paces – and with a good effect?
"

"Demian : Anleitung zum Selbst-Studium der militärischen Wissenschaft. Für Offiziere der k.k. österreichischen Armee, Erster Theil : Waffenlehre, Wien 1807

„ If one is looking into the usual instruction of the firing and its true purpose, which should be to hit an hostile item, one finds that these instructions are teaching precisely the non hitting, because :

1. Up to now the line infantry was not trained to fire at an aim. And still aiming is an art, which like others has to be learned and practised; if this is not the case then hitting would be at random. The line infantry man therefore must be taught and must practise when his shots should hit.
2. One is aiming (technically joue, schlagt an, in English maybe arm) always at the half man, without taking into account the different distances and terrain, despite according to the closer or farer distances, also the difference in terrain, demands a higher or lower aiming.
3. The man is pushed for quickness. One has tried to increase with the number of shots also the effect of the fire, and one was giving a lot effort to make the soldier fire seven to ten times per minute. However the experience teaches us that the soldier is shooting worse the quicker he loads, and that all speed and skill in loading is useless without proper aiming. Because not the skill [in loading] but the hitting makes the firing effective. The push for speed at aiming means to train them and use them to shot in the air. And to that already wrong instruction for firing one has to add the natural fear of the man, by which aiming in the heat of battle is almost impossible. Who was in a fire fight without noticing that in this moment the soldier is acting as a machine, that means he loads his gun, shots in the air, loads again and thinks less to damage the enemy than more to distract himself by the work to ban all thought of fear which are surrounding him in this moment. As soon as the soldier is seeing the enemy he wants to start to shoot being afraid that the other will overtake him in that and only few officers have the power to restrain their soldiers, or when they are able to do this they have not the knowledge about the shooting distance of the gun or to judge the distances. In case however the soldier is not lacking in cold blood and deliberation in a serious fire fight, and he is not acting as a machine, so alone because of the disorder and pushing for quickness, which is usual in a fire fight, is preventing to let him think about aiming. The experience teaches that the soldier is hardly listening at the commands of his officer in this critical moment and that every body as soon as he finished loading wants to shot. When one is closing the pan, the other is working with the ramrod, the third is making ready, the forth is arming and the fifth pulls the trigger. Is one taking into account the disorder which is caused by the falling of the dead, and the retreat of the wounded, as the quite dense smoke of powder which is enveloping the men, so it is impossible to expect that a sure shot can happen. Yes, even the best Jäger (marksmen, sharp shooters expert to hit with a shot, so to speak Hessian, Austrian, Prussian Jäger units) as soon as they would have to fire in rank and file, they would not hit better by the ruling constriction and disorder than the usual line infantry man."

The touch of elbow was an important factor in keeping the lines straight. From personal experience I can say that there is something rather comforting and reassuring about knowing you have men on either side. When a formation disintegrates it's disturbing. I imagine that a nice tight formation was an important part of maintaining the morale of a unit.

I will second Scott's sentiment. When marching having that elbow contact, if not shoulder-to-shoulder, is needed. You can tell in the field if your unit is really forming a loose rabble shlepping around. From the outside it looks bad and from the inside it feels wrong.

Same applied with ranks as well. Back rank should be closer than most would be comfortable with to the front.

The main reason for the elbow contact is that it is needed for efficiently moving all men of a unit.

In line, for example, the colour bearer will be told where to move. He is the only one who has to know.

All the men in the front rank will just keep aligned to him, by keeping the elbow contact into the direction to where the colours are. They don't have to know where the march is heading to, they just have to keep aligned. The men in the second and third rank follow the man directly in front of them. These men of the second and third rank don't keep elbow contact, because they are smaller and thus a bit more slender than the men in the first rank.

In column, each of the subdivisions following each other will have a guide. The guide of the first subdivision knows where to go, the men of the first rank of his subdivision align on him, the men of the second and third ranks follow the men in front of them.

The guides of the second and following subdivisions follow in the footsteps of the guide in front of them. So here again only one man – the guide of the first subdivision – has to be told where to go in order to move the complete unit.

I don't think shoulder-to-shoulder would work well ? You need a little space between the men as a kind of buffer, for the inevitable slippig and stumbling and of the men, especially on uneven ground.

Oliver I, and the other reenactors here, can assure you that it can work and does work. Yes, on rough ground or in the woods the nice tidy formations will come apart, but well-drilled troops can regain their parade ground formations in an amazingly short time once they get past the rough ground. It is what they are trained to do. Each man knows his spot and will almost instinctively regain his position if the ground forces him out of it. Heavy casualties can wreck this sort of cohesion, but rough ground rarely will.

@von Winterfeldt,

Your second quotation, from Demian, is one of the best things I have seen regarding the reality of being in a fire fight of the Napoleonic era--and it would apply equally to the rest of the horse and musket era at least up to the introduction of breech-loading firearms. One has to wonder, though, whether any Napoleonic army took up serious training in marksmanship outside of the light infantry units.

Scott, that's interesting – in which regulation (and from which period) is the the shoulder-to-shoulder contact found ?

Already with elbow-to-elbow contact (French 1791 regulations which remained valid throughout the Napoleonic Wars), sometimes it occurs that individuals are clinched by their comrades on the left and right. In the worst (and very rare) case, they are pressed out of the line to the front or to the second rank. Eventually, they will regain their rightful place, of course.

But of course, you can't expect so much from re-enactors who can invest just a few weekends per year to learn the drill.

I agree with Oliver, I also would like to learn about shoulder to shoulder alignment.

Folks….you are in serious danger of becoming re-enactmentophobics…in Post Brexit UK this will become a "Hate Crime".

Never mind their average age or BMI, cut these guys some slack. You chaps meet in a beer tent, chuck dice all day long in a UK centrally heated hall (or air-conditioned in the US of A) and all head home. The poor prom dressers turn out trying to look like Sharpe and spend ages learning how to simulate a firing line.

Bless them. I have only ever seen such in Pennsylvania, in King George's lost colonies, but I was impressed by their enthusiasm.

I think you war-gamers are a thoroughly rotten lot, the way you treat the folks who want to dress up etc.

I'll paint the 28mm figures, make the odd coach from scratch, stick them all in the attic and move on….

Do you mean Proms as in the Henry Wood Promenade Concerts presented by the BBC, is an eight-week summer season of daily orchestral classical music concerts and other events.
Or
Prom as in a formal dance, especially one held by a class in high school or college at the end of a year.

Sorry, Yank who lived in London for two years. I love the language differences.

OK, as a Paddy who has lived in England for all but the first four months of his 64 years, but therefore still has an EU qualified, post Brexit, passport despite that…….

With twin sons born on 17th March…. (your nomme de plume…do I detect a Hibernian connection?)

Yank, you have my sympathy. I can travel 25 miles north to Newcastle and literally cannot understand a word they are saying. Seriously………

I think these re-enactment folk are marvelous……they spend a fortune dressing up (like our girls in Prom dresses), they sleep in tents (I would love to suggest that to Mrs Deadhead) and they turn out trained far better than any poor yokel was in Boney's time. But we mock then for being too old, overweight, unfit, obsessional, incompetent, sometimes badly turned out….apart from that, what are they doing wrong?

Watch "Glory" for shoulder to shoulder firing line action. Brilliant…..

Its not as impractical as it sounds.
Just pray the bloke next to you has a flash guard.

flash guards, only in use in the Austrian Army, Prussian and Saxon army, believe me it makes a difference in not using flash guards, you will realize pdq why you don't aim when firing in rank and file in close order

Oliver,

My experience is as a Civil War reenactor, so I am less familiar with the regulations used during Napoleonic times, but I know that US manuals were based upon French manuals. The following is from Winfield Scott's tactics manual of 1835:

******

336. Touch lightly the elbow towards the guide.
 
    Because, by preserving this light touch of the elbow, the rank will be nearly aligned, and without openings; if, on the contrary, one man press strongly towards the guide, the man pressed must press in turn, and so on to the guide, who would thus be pushed out of the direction.
 
337. Not to open out the left elbow or the right arm
 
    In order that no one may press his neighbour, and that each man may occupy only his proper place.
 
338. Yield to pressure coming from the side of the guide, and resist that coming from the opposite side;
 
    In order to avoid throwing the guide out of the direction.
 
339. Recover by insensible degrees the slight touch of the elbow, if lost;

*****

As you can see, the 'light touch of elbows' is the way the regulations keep the lines straight.

Oh, and just a note on the level of training that reenactors have. It can vary wildly from awful to very good. Some groups are indeed just excuses to hang out and drink beer with their buddies and drill is something to be avoided. Others put a lot of effort into the drill. My own battalion was VERY good and I'd say we were on a level with any of the real troops, volunteers or regular.

Believe me it makes a difference in not using flash guards, you will realize pdq why you don't aim when firing in rank and file in close order.

Can you elaborate?

Scott, thanks, so I had misunderstood you. I had thought you were talking of a regulation which ordered shoulder-to-shoulder contact.

The French 1791 regulations give exactly the same principles as Winfield Scott for the elbow-to-elbow contact.

Side note – My understanding is that troops massed elbow to elbow in a column could not defend themselves against cavalry, once the cavalry had forced their way into the formation past the first couple of ranks. I have read that this is the reason D'Erlon's corps collapsed so quickly when penetrated by the Union Bde.

The reason would be – I guess – that albow to elbow does not allow sufficient space to raise the musket / bayonet / arms to shoulder height or higher when the ranks are entered and pushed back on themselves.

Can anyone comment?

without flash guard, you get a flash in your face – unless you turn your head away, hunch your shoulders, also spliters of the flint hitting your face, with flash guard, the flash is shielded away and goes up

"King George's lost colonies…" Heh heh, want any back?

Tell the truth, I was born in one of King George V's lost….well not colonies I guess….

The comments about the threat to your neighbour as you fired, as per von W for example……. how much greater to yourself!

The sparks from the pan may well blow back straight into your own face and eyes..does not encourage aiming.

I have often wondered just how inflammable were the contents of one's ammo pouch. OK it has a flap to cover it and these chaps were not idiots…..but if one spark did manage to get into what is basically paper and gunpowder, packed together next to your vital parts……

What? You don't speak Glaswegian or Liverpudlian. Okay, I once left the TV on over night and woke up little blue men (Smurfs) speaking Welsh.

Even percussion caps can be dangerous. Bits of the cap can break off and hit bystanders hard enough to draw blood.

The only cartridge box that I know of that blew up at a reenactment was a "belly" box. The flap stayed up after the reenactor grabbed a cartridge, he had an extra cartridge in his right hand, to speed up loading. When he fired, the extra cartridge in his hand ignited and he dropped it. It landed on top of his cartridge box… This was at a reenactment I was at in N.C. back in 1976.

There is also a reason why reenactors don't use the ramrod…

Interesting observations on the effectiveness of infantry fire, not just, but including, the 19th Century black powder era:

link

Cheers,
John

To enlarge a bit on the hazards of muzzle-loading weapons, you do NOT pour gunpowder directly into your barrel from a powder horn or flask, Walt Disney's Davy Crockett series notwithstanding. If there is any spark lurking down the bore, you will have turned your trusty powder horn into a hand grenade. Besides which you would have no way of knowing just how much powder you poured into the weapon.

funnily enough I poured 1000 times black powder directly from my cartridge into the barrel, and my comrades as well, as indeed did millions of soldiers of the Napoleonic time.
You would usually pour from a powder flask into a powder measurment tube whiich you could adjust so differ in the amount of powder to pour down.
The Prussians had a bit difficulties when introducing the oblique tang screw because when drilling without powder and throwing the ramrod into it, they damaged it, when cleaing with linen some threads did remain on the damaged tang screw and then those were still smouldering after the first shot, so premature igniton.
But the Prussians found out and inttroduced a drill leather plug which they would insert into the musket before drilling and therefore prevent getting the tang screw damaged.
French, British muskets did not have an oblique tange screw.

While re-enactors don't use ramrods in the US – my unit did, as well as fixed bajonets – all that makes such a big difference in handling a musket in rank and file.

"One has to wonder, though, whether any Napoleonic army took up serious training in marksmanship outside of the light infantry units."

In fact they did – but to what use? In rank and file firing regardless of training you just won't aim – a different matter for skirmishers though.

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Flashguards are metal shields that draw down over the pan. When the spark from the flint ignights the gunpowder in the pan and fires the ball, smoke, sparks and heat are blasted out of the touchhole. The flashguard directs these in an upwards direction. No flasguard means the bloke on your right gets it in the head/eye. Not fun.

I've stood next to both.

in historical context flash guards were introduced when some nations, Prussia amonst others introduced the self priming pan, this was achieved by a oblique tang screw and quite a large concial touch hole. First trials showed quite a much bigger outflash from the touch hole outwards when the poweder charge in the barrel ignited, in contrast to the cilindircal touch holes of previous Prussian muskets, so the flash guard was introduced.
British, French, Russian muskets did not have any flash guards in the Napoleonic time

here a photo showing drill ground oblique fire – in my view not used in real battle

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Fascinating how this thread has developed. I never knew about flashguards, I tend to think of them at the end of modern assault rifles!

von W's point is well made. I showed a couple of 95th loading from their powder horn. Totally wrong I later read, just as he tells us. Powder was transferred into a rather neat little flask, to then be dispensed into the firearm. But it had never occurred to me that the powder horn could be a threat to the user if ignited!

Premature ignition is always a worry. I once had a misfire (easy not to realize this when you are firing blanks and there is little recoil) and then the charge went off just as I was pouring in another cartridge. Burned my eyebrows off and sent me to the hospital with a batch of black powder grains in my eyes.

The French 1791 regulation orders the instructor to point out to the soldier that if his musket has fired, usually there will come a little smoke out of the touchhole (I don't know whether this also works with percussion). No smoke means that the charge is probably still inside the barrel, blocking the free passage of air.

If you use a ramrod (which is as long as the inside of the barrel), the length of the ramrod protruding out of the muzzle after ramming down the cartridge, indicates how many charges are in the barrel.

Using paper cartridges and ramming them down the barrel with the ramrod, increases the recoil and gives another indication whether the charge was ignited or not. With a lead ball on the shooting range, the recoil will be even stronger.

As far as I remember, the flashguard in the Prussian army was not introduced in order to protect the soldiers, but to prevent by a kind of damming-up effect that too much of protruding power was getting out of the touchhole instead of propelling the missile.

The outer diameter of the conical touchholes had to be bigger than the former cylindrical ones, in order to assure that suffient powder would fall into the pan. Also, these conical touchholes were wearing out more quickly on the outer side.

If you look at a soldier firing, you will note that his pan and the flash are well ahead of his face. When firing in line, all his comrades – if they are well-drilled – will be exactly in the same position as he is, so principally the flash will pass into the empty space beteween the line formed by the heads of his rank and the line of heads of the rank before him. (The man on the image below has his upper body more inclined to the front than would be allowed while in formation.)

seemingly I was lucky, it never worried me, the worst burns I did see happened when there was a misfire, like no flash in the pan – and the re-enactor used another cartridge for priming it again but instead of throwing it away, or spilling the powder in the barrel, they kept it in hand (the right one) and when pulling the trigger – igniting the flash in the pan, which ignited the cartridge in the hand, terrible and very painfull burns.

well – there is the theory – the best way to avoid a skin burn was just look away and hunch the back, long hair also did help, as well as a high colour.

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