"Rise and Fall of 15mm Gaming systems" Topic

As i writen Strike Legion Platoon Leader Strange New Worlds i started thinking about how so many gaming systems failed while offering something more – We saw gaming systems like FAD, Fireteam Andromeda, Strike Legion Platoon Leader and others to start and then fallen into abyss of forget.

So what rule system do you use? and why think most played are TW, SGII and Gruntz?

Grunts is out game of choice. Can't say I've heard of the failed ones you refer to, which may explain why they failed.

"fallen into abyss of forget" I quite like how that sounds!

The list of "failed" systems in any genre would be huge. Miniature gaming has been around since at least the 1970s. So for nearly 50 years games have come and gone, attracted followings and lost steam. Think how popular WRG Ancients was, or Challenger for cold war gaming.

Games that stand the test of time do so for various reasons. Some do so because they are amazing games and do what they do better than other games do. They may be better supported that other games, both with products and a great marketing campaign. Maybe they just hit the market at the exact right time.

Back when games were only available as printed copies from brick and mortar stores a game could "die" but with product available as downloads basically forever can games really die?

People are still playing Laserburn, Imperial Commander and the like so I am not sure games actually die.

Gruntz is my fave. Simple straight forward rules. Easy for a new person to grasp but still fun for a veteran minis player as well. Awesome and easy to use build engine for all the units with a lot of options to customize the units almost any way you want. Plays quickly, not slowed down by charts and book keeping.

I don't know they're forgotten; just not mentioned as often as others. I know of groups that regularly play TW, SL:PL, and PMC2460. I also know groups that play Gruntz, which is my least favorite of those listed (too derivative, too underdeveloped, and very limited as to force creation compared to some other games; could definitely use a 2nd edition).

I played gruntz few times and while its nice introduction our group inclined more for more milsim action in 15mm which TW and Platoon Leader much better than Gruntz will ever work. But to be honest to Gruntz, Robin made excelent PR when he promoted Gruntz from very begining at that main reason why G15 is soo popular.

I've found that people are obsessed with the idea that a manufacturer has to 'support' a rules set by constantly putting out new product for it. Ironically the same people tend to complain about GW putting out a non-stop stream of product that they feel obligated to buy. A rule system doesn't stop working just because the writers haven't published something this week. I've come across people who are still playing systems that are 20 years old and not 'supported' anymore.

Hell there's a convention for Ground Zero Games systems every year here in NY and their stuff hasn't been 'supported' for over a decade. StarGrunt II is 22 years old, has been a free download for 10 years, has no supplements for it and is regularly admitted to being the precursor to Tomorrows War which has also been out of print for years and they're two of the systems you've mentioned.

My view is that gamer's tastes change. In the 80's and 90's games were pretty granular. Lots of tables and charts and rules. Now things seem to have shifted to "I want it to be fast so I can get a few games in an evening at the club". I don't think either approach is bad, just depends upon what the players are wanting from the experience. I play a lot of THW games because I like the feel of the action, the way it flows back and forth. I don't like IGOUGO games because they don't have that.
I think that a lot of systems go un-noticed by the majority of people because they are not marketed much, or at least not widely, and not continuously. Doesn't matter how good the are if you've never heard of them or seen an AAR…