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"Differences between CoC and BA?" Topic


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Keith Talent18 Jun 2018 10:55 p.m. PST

And cue VVV response:

"The king is in the altogether, the altogether, the altogether"

(The training weekend he went on contained quite a lengthy section on putting your hands over your ears and going "la,la,la, la"
Apparently this is highly effective in the event of any enemy activity.

David Brown19 Jun 2018 12:33 a.m. PST

Trailape,

Oh do come on!

Despite the best attempts in previous threads your operational command experience and my experience in command situations simply pale into insignificance up against Justin's vast knowledge that he has accumulated over 47 long years of wargaming and absolute no operational level experience.

Just you wait and see….

DB

trailape19 Jun 2018 12:57 a.m. PST

I'm late to this party so I'm only now catching up on some pearls of wisdom such as:

Yes because I believed he could only issue one radio order a phase, I am happy to accept the interpretation that he can issue as many as he has CI.

WTF is a squad leader doing with a radio!?!?!??
The platoon Commander has a radio but NOT a Squad Leader.
And this;

You talk about player involvement but thats because CoC is one of those games where I do everything, then U do everything, for entire forces.

Actually NO!
I can have troops on overwatch and I can interrupt with a CoC die.
I can even launch an AMBUSH!!!
Have you actually played CoC VVV?

David Brown19 Jun 2018 1:12 a.m. PST

VVV,

Oh and just one more example to drive home the point about friction, of which you still stubbornly refuse to accept (I suspect because in doing you feel you may undermine your own rule writing efforts).

WW2 Western Desert 1941 – Royal Artillery practise live fire combined exercise and drill with infantry, well behind friendly lines to bring fresh cadres up to speed before being deployed to the front.

Guess what – the coordinates given by the battery commander were wrong! He mistakenly gave the coordinates of our own troops also participating in the excise! That's friction, for what reason, who knows – but Trailape has highlighted some pretty good ones.

At this point a certain young Gunner Brown steps out of line to correct the coordinates. Despite being hollered at for having the audacity to question an officer's orders, they double check and hey, guess what! Opps.

There you have friction in warfare but not under direct enemy contact. (And I'm pretty sure the artillery weren't deployed on a steep slope either…)

I say again, Justin, get a grip!

DB

kevanG19 Jun 2018 3:48 a.m. PST

Dave wrote…."Oh and just one more example to drive home the point about friction, of which you still stubbornly refuse to accept (I suspect because in doing you feel you may undermine your own rule writing efforts)."

….and also why I suspect I have had no examples of any battle/ skirmish when friction didnt influence the course of the battle

…not one…but then that's because there aren't any

trailape19 Jun 2018 4:07 a.m. PST

VVV wrote:

Perhaps I am old fashioned. But until I see reasons for throwing dice for moving troops, I am inclined to stick to my 'dated' thoughts

Too easy.
I'm with a platoon in contact.
I order a section on my left flank to advance onto a irrigation ditch to my left. The section starts to move by ‘pepper potting' (rushing by teams of two men) after the first rush they halt,…
"CONTACT FRONT!!!! Lone enemy, axis of advance"!!!!
One of the lads sees a En near the ditch. The whole section goes to ground. The platoon Sergent moves up to see what the hold up is.
"I saw a guy with an AK moving in the ditch Sarge"!
The Sgt moves forward.
Not a sole to be seen.
Bottom line?
Section didn't move because 1 guy THOUGHT he saw someone or something.
Maybe a bad guy was there then lit out.
Maybe it was just a local with a hoe.
Maybe the lad was just jumpy or simply didn't want to go near a bloody irrigation ditch he had already decided was littered with IEDs again.
But by VVV's rational they SHOULD have moved directly to the irrigation ditch REGARDLESS of the potential they could all have copped a spray!
Do you require another example?
I have 100s.

trailape19 Jun 2018 5:40 a.m. PST

I just stubbed across this gem
VVV Wrote;

Great and I would have no problem with that. BTW at the distances we are talking about, shouting would do the trick, that is also mentioned in real-life action reports

Lol!!!
Seriously
Sure,… EVENTUALLY!
You've never been on a two way range clearly.
A platoon engagement is easily one of the most confusing, terrifying, exciting and LOUD environments a person will ever experiance.
Not only are your weapons clattering away but so are the enemies (usually at the very point and time when you're trying to make sense of the utter s#%tstorm you find yourself in).
Even if a section commander can hear you he's probably flat out ordering his section to conduct drills whilst listening to what THEY have to report back to him.
All this whilst we're assuming he doesn't have any casualties to deal with.
And also assuming there aren't other assets involved in the fight such as Mortars, or Artillery or LAVs or even other company assets.
Yes, you as a platoon leader will issue orders verbally but don't expect an instantaneous response every time.
Sometimes it'll be a runner passing on your orders in the form of the Platoon Sgt or just some baggy arse digger you'll pinch from the section you happen to be closest to (much to the annoyance of their Seco).

toofatlardies19 Jun 2018 6:09 a.m. PST

I hate to admit it trailape, but I have never written rules to cover a "local with a hoe"…

David Brown19 Jun 2018 7:23 a.m. PST

Trailape,

Re: Shouting would do the trick.

VVV has clearly never fired a weapon, over a prolonged period, without ear-defenders…..

E.G. Having done some room clearance, the idea that I could shout orders as shotguns are taking off the door hinges followed by flash-bangs (or grenades!) going off is a little optimistic, to say the least.

DB

Munin Ilor19 Jun 2018 11:06 a.m. PST

trailape wrote:

WTF is a squad leader doing with a radio!?!?!??
The platoon Commander has a radio but NOT a Squad Leader.

In fairness to VVV, this was in reference to armored platoons, where each of the vehicles has a radio, and the platoon commander can (partially) activate tanks in his platoon via radio command up to the limit of his CI. This capability is only available to Senior Leaders.

Phils Mate19 Jun 2018 12:13 p.m. PST

I've read through the whole of this thread with varying levels of annoyance and incredulity and I've got to say VVV, you just got BURNED by trailape! :)

I've played some Bolt Action and a lot of CoC and, in my opinion, Bolt Action is a game but CoC is a wargame.

jdginaz19 Jun 2018 12:40 p.m. PST

I find it astonishing that after putting forward his time in the TA to legitimize his views on the flaws in CoC he then dismisses the experience of veteran who have actually served in combat zones. simply because they conflict with his imagined view on what happens in the real thing. In my view It's sad and insulting to those veterans.


BTW I think he reverting to asking about real commanders rolling dice to see what they can do is because he's been so completely proven to be wrong that he is down to gasping at straws. It's so Ridiculous I can't think of any other reason why somebody would do so.

Emilio19 Jun 2018 2:08 p.m. PST

Some bites from this:

link

may be relevant for this thread.

Milo.

trailape19 Jun 2018 4:55 p.m. PST


In fairness to VVV, this was in reference to armored platoons, where each of the vehicles has a radio, and the platoon commander can (partially) activate tanks in his platoon via radio command up to the limit of his CI. This capability is only available to Senior Leaders

I stand corrected!
Please accept my apologies on this point VVV

trailape19 Jun 2018 4:58 p.m. PST

I hate to admit it trailape, but I have never written rules to cover a "local with a hoe"…

You have no idea how often a local hoe has resulted in a swathe of administrative and disciplinary issues in a Regiment!

trailape19 Jun 2018 5:25 p.m. PST

I want to just make sure it's understood that I don't feel VVV has been disrespectful or dismissive of anything I've written here.
I have no issue with anyone challenging what I've said. Many veterans will have different perspectives on exactly the same experiance which is hardly surprising considering how confusing and often traumatic an engagement can be.
I've sat in on debriefings and heard three guys give three different versions of what they all experienced. The only things that were certain were the common points.
That said I think VVV hasn't got a shmick about the design philosophy that Rich and his team have pursued in creating CoC.
I don't think he understands how ‘messy' combat is (both physically and administratively). Friction isn't just the enemy messing with your plans it's all the innumerable unknowns that arrive at the most inconvenient times,
If VVV (I have no idea what his real name is, mine's Scott), has legitimate criticism of any rule system he should be able to voice them, but they need to be legitimate and they in turn can be challenged.
If someone thinks CoC (or any rules suck) then my advice is, don't play them.

trailape19 Jun 2018 6:28 p.m. PST

BTW I think he reverting to asking about real commanders rolling dice to see what they can do is because he's been so completely proven to be wrong that he is down to gasping at straws. It's so Ridiculous I can't think of any other reason why somebody would do so.

Hard to reason otherwise 👍

jdginaz19 Jun 2018 6:31 p.m. PST

He is, Justin Taylor
Here is his blog
link

trailape19 Jun 2018 6:35 p.m. PST

VVV Wrote:

And perhaps not. If you think a 19th century general and military theoretician has relevance to WW2 platoon actions, please share with us what you think it is. I notice that Too Fat Lardies seem keen on Clauswitz as well.
But what relevance does it have to the topic? Weaponry/technology different, tactics different and vast armies of conscripts who have only just been trained to fight.


What relevance?
Seriously?
Clauewitz is taught in every reputable Military College and Academy to this day.
And what do those institutions produce?
PLATOON COMMANDERS!
Every platoon commander must understand what ‘Friction' is and how it will impact on them, their men and their plans.
There are certain principles that stand the passing of time and advances in weapon technologies.
This comment alone would render you completely devoid of any credibility if you hadn't already blown your foot off many times over!

Basha Felika19 Jun 2018 9:34 p.m. PST

Suddenly this thread became informative and insightful again, thanks to Trailape and others!

And Rich, I'll now have to incorporate a local with a hoe in the Trumpton Riots game planned for OML7, just for you – though I'm told most hoes in Evesham are imported from Eastern Europe – they use them in the market gardens for which the town is well known.

trailape19 Jun 2018 10:18 p.m. PST

Vvv wrote this:

And no this not about an honest discussion of the rules, I suppose that has been done else where. Its about the differences between CoC and BA and in summary, CoC is a lot more dice driven.

You're completel ignoring the fact that the dice in CoC is purely a mechanism to enable and frustrate your ability to activate your units.
It's no more ‘dice driven' (whatever that means) than BA or DH or any other Wargame.
All rules attempt to RESTRICT your ability to do things.
Some rules restrict your moving by limiting an Infantry move in good trrrain to a maximum of 10cm. In CoC the rule is simply if you move in a tactical stance you can move anywhere from 1 to 6 inch's. So rather than some arbitrary distance that might be perfectly adiquate for moving in a particular type of scrub but is incredibly generous when considering another type of scrub you're given a movement ‘range band' . consequently you don't know if the lads will be able to cover the required distance in 1, 2 or maybe 3 phases. THAT'S REALISTIC!
Not all scrub is the same after all. Do you want to create 5 different tables for the various types of scrub?
Some rules limit your rate of fire.in the original BA a MG34 could only generate 3 or 4 dice if I remember correctly. That's way to few in my opinion compared to what rifleman could generate but maybe it was a game balancing mechanism.
But I can say that I have more ability to do the actual types of actions in CoC that a real platoon commander can do than I could do if playing BA.
I can launch an actual ambush and I can order covering fire that actually makes it harder for the enemy to interfere with my movements which is different to suppressive fire.
This isn't meant as a criticism of BA, just pointing out that different rules use different mechanisms to create different gaming experiences.
You pays your money and make your choices.
You also seem to have real issues with the fact you might not get some of your platoon assets on the table.
Why?
Have you never heard of the ‘empty battlefield' concept?
What could be more realistic then looking into an Area Of Operations (a Wargames Table) and not seeing the enemy? Your scouts have reported they are there and you can make educated guesses as to where but you don't know for certain.
CoC is the only platoon Level game that poses that problem.
Consequently you need to feed your troops onto the table.
So you get your troops into an ‘off Table' Forming Up Point' (FUP) and then feed assets on as the big picture developed and you're able to commit your troops to where your main effort will be. JUST LIKE IN REALITY.
The risk is that the enemy will create such pressure on you that you won't be able to get everything ‘up and commited'. It's unlikely that will happen (well over 50 Games now and only once have I not been able to get all my platoon on the table).

In short the Command dice in CoC are simply the mechanism by which you as a commander are restricted from behaving like some battlefield demigod.

trailape19 Jun 2018 10:23 p.m. PST

And Rich, I'll now have to incorporate a local with a hoe in the Trumpton Riots game planned for OML7, just for you – though I'm told most hoes in Evesham are imported from Eastern Europe – they use them in the market gardens for which the town is well known.

Make sure it's a clean hoe!
A dirty hoe can lead to incapacitate soldiers

David Brown20 Jun 2018 1:54 a.m. PST

T,

Re:

If VVV has legitimate criticism of any rule system he should be able to voice them, but they need to be legitimate and they in turn can be challenged.

Indeed, however rule writers themselves should tread carefully when they critique other rules.

This is generally, I believe, an unwritten code of honour that fellow rule writers do not dish the dirt, or overtly criticise without very good foundation a fellow rule writer's efforts. Rule writers need to act with decency.

Harsh, unfair or out-right criticisms should simply be left to others.

DB

trailape20 Jun 2018 2:05 a.m. PST

Is VVV a Rules author?
I was unaware,…
I'd love to review his efforts

Lowtardog20 Jun 2018 4:11 a.m. PST

You have no idea how often a local hoe has resulted in a swathe of administrative and disciplinary issues in a Regiment!

And the pressure on the Clap clinic/sick parade :P

Basha Felika20 Jun 2018 6:29 a.m. PST

A game with trailape or lowtardog would be more fun than one with Justin, I think.

kevanG20 Jun 2018 10:09 a.m. PST

"A game with trailape or lowtardog would be more fun than one with Justin, I think."

that may be a bit harsh since we havent had an opportunity to play a game with him, but at least the rules would be better!

kevanG20 Jun 2018 10:10 a.m. PST

"Is VVV a Rules author?
I was unaware,…
I'd love to review his efforts"

You really don't…..

jdginaz20 Jun 2018 11:58 a.m. PST

@KevanG, I'm curious, would you care to elaborate?

From the two reviews I read they just sound like a rehash of rules from the '70s or '80s nothing special.

kevanG20 Jun 2018 1:55 p.m. PST

Yep…but the terms used actually sound like they came from the back of a laxative bottle and a disinfectant bottle.

Soft targets have a constitution value and weapons have a power value.

And an entire table is produced which could have been done with a simple modifier

roll 4+ to kill …"adjust die roll by + or – 1 one when these differ by 1 and adjust by 2 when they differ by 2 or more"..

The text disusses that the constitution values are adjusted for cover and saves you needing a save roll. He didn't even notice that he eliminated having a "save" roll by introducing the "to kill" roll.

Calling it something else and turning it on its head doesn't make a bottle become a greenhouse

trailape21 Jun 2018 1:57 a.m. PST

Seems to have gone quiet,….
I'm assuming VVV has nothing more to add?

Basha Felika21 Jun 2018 3:46 a.m. PST

Or preparing for a counter attack…

trailape21 Jun 2018 4:49 a.m. PST

Or preparing for a counter attack…

I'll not hold my breath

Basha Felika21 Jun 2018 8:50 a.m. PST

He's demonstrating the concept of friction by keeping our nerves on edge.

jdginaz21 Jun 2018 10:59 a.m. PST

While looking for one of my old posts for another thread is ran across this interesting tidbit


"Which medium offers the best realism?"
vvv reply 5 Sep 2017 3:27 p.m. PST
As you have said there is Chain of Command and another popular set, Bolt Action (but that means buying lots of books). So I would say stick with Chain of Command. Its a good, clear set of rules and easy to pick up.

trailape21 Jun 2018 7:22 p.m. PST

"Which medium offers the best realism?"
vvv reply 5 Sep 2017 3:27 p.m. PST
As you have said there is Chain of Command and another popular set, Bolt Action (but that means buying lots of books). So I would say stick with Chain of Command. Its a good, clear set of rules and easy to pick up.

And then his brain exploded?
I wonder what changed?

trailape21 Jun 2018 7:36 p.m. PST

Oh oh oh,… I found another pearl of wisdom:

But an ambush is not a movement, just shooting from a concealed position.

WRONG!!!!
An ambush can be both a static ambush OR a mobile Ambush.
The type of ambush sprung using a CoC Dice could represent EITHER.
Example:
Platoon commander sees an En tank approaching.
He orders Pte Bloggs to move through the slight fold in the earth to their left and engage the tank from the flank and then leg it.
Or
He sees the pre positioned Bazooka Team pop out of a concealed pit and fire on the tank.
To generalise an Ambiah is simply firing from a concealed position is simplistic at best.
Hopefully the entire platoon (if defending a point) will be firing from concealed positions. Their presence in the area might be known but their specific fighting pits or locations might not. This however is not a PLATOON AMBUSH position because their presence is known.
The Bazooka team who pop up out of nowhere? Clearly there presence was NOT KNOWN.

Snowcat21 Jun 2018 8:39 p.m. PST

And then his brain exploded?
I wonder what changed?

I think it's called an agenda. ;)

Cheers

Basha Felika22 Jun 2018 12:26 a.m. PST

Keep your heads down, lads, he's lurking behind a bush – last visited 20th June, if the visit counter can be relied upon these days.

David Brown22 Jun 2018 1:47 a.m. PST

he's lurking behind a bush

It could be similar to a bush we used once to lurk behind in a great ambush position – unfortunately we realised after a few seconds another section has used it as their latrine…… and more than once!

Now that's friction!

DB

Wolfhag22 Jun 2018 6:09 a.m. PST

That happened on Tarawa. A Marine took cover in a large depression only to find it was used as a latrine. He was pinned down for a few hours and never had a chance to change his clothes. For the rest of his life, his sense of smell never worked again.

Wolfhag

sidley23 Jun 2018 1:08 p.m. PST

Friction as explained repeatedly above can cover innumerable factors drom the operational level down to the low level tactical (section) level. The idea that a unit can always move 6 inches, it's always 6 inches is laughable. Distance covered can vary by the time delay in receiving the order, the small detail of the terrain (those billiard smooth gaming clothes do not reflect reality) to the nervousness or indeed stupidity of the section commander moving his soldiers.
The other criticism that the random dice means less control than BA is pure *&@@##** . With BA, one unlucky roll means that the unit you really really need to move might not do so. In CoC the way the dice fall mean that you can select the important troops to get stuck in but not necessarily all of them.
I was an officer in a British infantry regiment and I will tell you now, that the closest to making real decisions at platoon level in a game system is CoC by a country mile. Now if some individual on the basis of one game using tanks to indicate the viability of an infantry platoon level game, wishes to criticise a game system, he can fill his boots, but the only person he is convincing is that fella in the mirror when he gets out of his bed in the morning.

trailape23 Jun 2018 4:04 p.m. PST

I was an officer in a British infantry regiment and I will tell you now, that the closest to making real decisions at platoon level in a game system is CoC by a country mile

And there's the consistent point that seems to come up.
ALL (and I mean ALL) of my mates that are also veterans agree that CoC produces by far a better representation of the types of issues / Tactical Problems actual Platoon and Section Leaders face.
That is NOT to say other rules won't give you an enjoyable game, just not a realistic one (as far as ‘realistic' one can expect from a game).
BA might be fun but only CoC is both fun AND realistic.
For a slight (very slight) increase in complexity of play you are rewarded with a far more satisfying experiance.

Chariobaude07 Sep 2018 1:57 a.m. PST

i have nothing to add to the fun, but i just really had to say hello. its been the most entertaining thread to date.

Please dont stop.

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