"Why Three Crew for Support Weapons?" Topic

Putting together my WWII forces for Chain of Command, I'm finding it really frustrating that nearly all figure manufacturers produce support Weapons with three crew. Why is this the case? Anti-tank guns, heavy machine guns, infantry support guns all had larger crews than this yet whilst the five or six crew CoC uses is much more correct, nobody seems to make weapons with sufficient crew.

Is there any hope we will see this rectified? Or even some packs of general crew figures we could use to make numbers up would work.

Because not every ruleset requires you to field the real life number of crew for a particular weapon. You picked CoC, but in Rapid Fire, for example, MMGs and small a/t guns and artillery pieces have three crew, whilst bigger guns have four. Consequently you won't find me complaining about gun models only having three or four crew figures. You can often buy separate crew packs if you need more figures, it depends upon which manufacturer you have chosen. Better that than to be stuck with crew figures you had to pay for but will never use.

Actually you CAN'T often buy crew packs. Which was my point in the original post.

But you can. I have when necessary. Depends upon your choice of manufacturer. Shouting makes no difference.

Probably because most rules approximate crew sizes? And possibly a dose of convention! I was painting some 2mm heavy weapons strips last night and they have 2 or 3 crew members!

I guess it depends on scale as well. Battlefront has five or so figures in their crews plus support at higher levels. Of course these are sold to their rule set.

I just use spare riflemen for my additional crew in CoC.

In 28mm it is hard to find correct numbers of crew form almost any support weapon. I agree with Northern Monkey completely. As for rules 'approximating' the number of weapons crews, some people enjoy playing skirmish games that are truly 1:1 skirmish scale games, therefore if a light mortar team is supposed to have a six person crew, it would be nice to field figures that accurately represent the crew numbers. I do get however that it is a matter of economics for manufacturers and if there's no profit in it, I'll continue to be disappointed.

Peter pig can provide any amount of crew needed. For most WW2 armies too. We will even make up special packs with the proportions of loader/gunner etc that you wish. Problem solved for all 15mm players. Hope that helps?

I am not sure what your problem is Private. There aren't six guys huddled round an 81mm mortar tripping over each other to stuff a round down the tube. The extras are there to carry ammo and when not doing that would provide local defence for the mortar with their personal weapons so any suitable infantry figures should do. With mutipose plastic infantry available you should be able to do some extra figures carrying ammo boxes without too much hassle if you want them doing that. Ditto for gun crews. A kneeling figure with a pair of binos can be added to an AT gun crew or knock up some shells from plastic sprue and glue them into suitable arms.
Also have you tried asking if they will sell you extra crew? I got Warlord to sell me just the metal bits from the German Pioneer set (although they just sent the whole lot, but only charged me for the metal!) and First Corps sent me jeep crews without the jeeps. Never know until you ask.

+1 Fred

Ask your favorite manufcaturer, the worst they can do is say no.

What scale figures are you using?

I'm not sure what scale you're gaming in deephorse, but in 28mm I have never seen any company selling spare crewmen to make up the proper numbers.

I appreciate that Peter Pig do this in 15mm, but that doesn't help me in 28mm which is the scale my clubmates are playing CoC in.

There are plenty of on line forums and even Facebook groups for Chain of Command. Maybe you'd get some answers there.

I'd follow Extra Crispy's advice and phone the manufacturer you are using. It might be worth tagging your request to a bigger order – a manufacturer might not want to go out of his way to sell you just a dozen figures but, he might be more than happy to do it if you are passing over a few hundred pounds.

Perry do some separate gun crews as packs.

in 28mm I have never seen any company selling spare crewmen

I just bought some of these (I like how most of them are moving ammo, and how they're crouched down to get behind the gun shield): link

Artizan have them in winter gear: link

Perry: link, link

Warlord Games is very accommodating about selling extra odd-ball figures.

I also use mortar crew for extra artillery crew.

The extra machine gun crew are ammunition bearers, generally carrying rifles, or in the French and US armies, carbines. These are pretty easy to get hold of. I often model an ammo box at the feet of a kneeling figure.

I use kneeling or prone riflemen for extra lmg, mmg and mortar crews. In 20mm at guns and larger often come with appropriate crews or have crew members available separately.This is especially true for AB and Early War Miniatures.

Northern Monkey, you are not looking very hard then.
link
link
There is a couple for a start. Also if you are really desperate why not buy a spare mortar set and use the mortar as stowage or debris and use the crew. Cost a bit more of course.

Generally, an Infantry Hvy Wpns crew, i.e. MMG, HMG or Mortar, e.g. :

Gunner
Loader
Gun Cdr

Their functions are self explanatory based on their designation.

But in many cases with an MG, you'd only have the Gunner & Loader.

Legion 4

No, that's simply not the case in reality. The Vickers MMG had a crew of 6 to 8 men, the 6 pounder AT gun had a crew of 6, the 17 pounder had a crew of 6, the 3" mortar had a crew of 6.

Fred Cartwright. Really? Your examples of German and US crewmen are utterly useless to me with a British force. In fact they are great examples of precisely what I am pointing out. In their case they are three men crew in winter clothing. They are designed to replace the three man crew which the gun is supplied with.

And how was a I supposed to know you had a British force Northern Monkey? They were just a couple I found from a quick search. Look for suitable figures yourself and I have already said you can make your own from the plastic multipose infantry and Warlord make a British plastic set. Not beyond the wit of the average wargamer.

They are designed to replace the three man crew which the gun is supplied with.

Actually they are not, you can buy the gun with the winter crew or you can buy the winter crew separately. Ask Artizan if they will sell you British crew without the gun, then add them to the Warlord gun and crew. Hey presto 6 crew all different. No reason why Artizan won't as they already sell seperate crew packs. Use a bit of initiative.

The 3 in mortar may have officially had a crew of six but in reality it would usually only be four, and only three would actually serve the mortar – the number 1 or det commander is in charge of all sight adjustments, the number 2 drops the rounds down the barrel, and the number 3 is responsible for preparing the ammunition to the correct charge and fuse setting. Of the other three, one is the driver (who remains with the vehicle) and the other two are purely there to lug ammunition.

Likewise with the 6 pdr- gun commander, gunner, loader, two ammunition numbers (if unit is up to full strength), and a driver.

Can't seem to edit! My mistake, a 6 pdr detachment has two Loyd Carriers so you would only ever have a maximum of four men actually crewing the gun. Commander, gunner, loader, ammunition handler. Again, the drivers would normally stay with the vehicles.

I don't know Fred. But then how were you to know how hard I was looking? You have no idea how hard I've looked, yet you accused me of not looking hard.

I can, of course, convert figures. I can, of course, buy from multiple ranges. But I thought it would be worth asking if anyone made them with a full crew. It seemed like a pretty inoffensive question, but as usual here people just seem to like to come back with snarky comments.

The bug got my reply … Not matter, I agree with Windy Miller …

Well we can shave a few figures off the British crews for 1943-45.

3-inch mortar detachment (in Inf and Mot Bns and Recce Regts); 5 men in each detachment, with NCO, three mortar numbers and a driver-mechanic for the Universal carrier. Drivers as noted above would stay with the vehicle. Where the Section Sjt was acting as a controller with a Rifle Coy the Section Cpl (or L/Sjt) would be back with the two firing detachments and the 1944 Mortar Pl manual does actually show a three man crew per weapon.

6-pdr anti-tank gun (same unit types); less drivers was 5 men per gun det. Inf and Mot Bns each had two Loyd carriers per gun, so two drivers, with NCO and three gun numbers in the towing vehicle and one gun number in the second Loyd. Recce Regts had a pair of gun towers and a third carrier with two gun numbers, one per det.

MMG (1943-45 MG Bns and Coys and Mot Bns); actually just an NCO and two gun numbers on the gun carrier, plus a driver-mechanic. The Section (two guns) added a Sjt and range-taker in a third carrier, with driver.

All three types of Platoons had more of an entourage at Pl HQ, but if you're concentrating on the elements serving the weapons it wasn't that crowded a scene. As noted earlier, you pretty much need at least three men to keep a mortar/tripod MG or atk gun functioning, and anyone more than that is largely an ammunition bearer or a driver.

Gary

I don't know Fred. But then how were you to know how hard I was looking? You have no idea how hard I've looked, yet you accused me of not looking hard.

Actually you stated pretty categorically that you couldn't buy seperate crew figures, which is obviously not true. Here is your exact comment.

I'm not sure what scale you're gaming in deephorse, but in 28mm I have never seen any company selling spare crewmen to make up the proper numbers.

Hence the well I had a very quick look and here are 2 packs reply! And if you have looked that hard for seperate crew packs you should have also found out that no one does guns with a full crew.

Wow. Someone needs a chill pill.

And here I am modeling all my Vietnam MGs with gunner and loader, M67 teams with gunner and loader, 81mm mortars with 3 crew, and usually 3 men per infantry stand (for squads of 6).

My WW2 models tend to run 3 men per MG and mortar, and 3-4 men per infantry stand (squads of 7-9). Drivers and ammo mules are on the vehicles.

Because the combat arms are NEVER EVER up to TO&E strength…

Once again, we seem to be getting the same old mantras about combat units never being up to strength, particularly with support units, they often were at book strength.

Actually, I wasn't stating categorically that I couldn't get figures (although I can't get them off the peg I can and do convert them) I was actually musing on why three crew is normal for a model gun when in reality that is the absolute minimum that are required. The US 3" AT gun, for example had a crew of nine, all of whom were serving the gun in action with nobody simply being a "mule". The use of five or six crewmen seems to me to be far more of an accurate representation but nobody in 28mm seems to make crews that size, nor do they make spare packs of additional generic crew for support weapons. Having a pack of a few men opening boxes or generally appearing busy would fill that gap. I was merely commenting that I found that a surprising omission. It seemed a pretty innocuous observation to make and in view of the popularity of Chain of Command, I'm surprised more people don't share my desire for such figures to be available.

Fred seems to consistently misunderstand my point. The "spare" figures he highlights are actually replacement crews in alternative uniforms. They are still three man crews.

Fred seems to consistently misunderstand my point. The "spare" figures he highlights are actually replacement crews in alternative uniforms. They are still three man crews.

Northern Monkey that wasn't what your original post said and I quote.

Or even some packs of general crew figures we could use to make numbers up would work.

Hence my suggestions for ways to get hold of additional crew figures without the gun to make up the numbers, but if that is not what you wanted fair enough. Perhaps you could tell us what you want the extra guys in the 6 man Mortar and HMG crews doing?

Only on TMP.

Fred, I am assuming you meant no offense but you have come off a bit snarky. Your response to my post starts with "I don't know what your problem is" which could be read as snarky. My polite advise is you (and all of us) may want to reread our posts before we hit submit. After all tho is meant to be a polite conversation.

Actually Private what I said was I am not sure what your problem is, which is a bit different to what's your problem?!
Returning to Northern Monkey's questions.

I'm finding it really frustrating that nearly all figure manufacturers produce support Weapons with three crew. Why is this the case?

It seems most people don't want 6 crew and are happy with 3 or 4.

Is there any hope we will see this rectified?

No I don't think there is.

Fred, true but it still came across as snarky. Consider instead a statement such as "I don't see this as an issue.". It conveys the same thought without implying there is something wrong with the poster. All I'm saying is that a bit more thought into how our posts are perceived will lead to a more polite and enjoyable TMP.

Perrys tend to do bit larger crews, with MG and mortar teams containing 4 man crews as far as I am aware.

As for bigger guns by Perrys, these seem to usually contain 3 or 4 man crews. However, they also have 6 man crews for 25 pounder and 5.5 inch howitzer, and 8 man crew for 88 mm FlaK – though in these cases the crew and the gun are sold as two separate product codes.

And here I am modeling all my Vietnam MGs with gunner and loader, M67 teams with gunner and loader, 81mm mortars with 3 crew, and usually 3 men per infantry stand (for squads of 6).
My WW2 models tend to run 3 men per MG and mortar, and 3-4 men per infantry stand (squads of 7-9). Drivers and ammo mules are on the vehicles.
Because the combat arms are NEVER EVER up to TO&E strength…

That is basically what my post said, before the bug got it … I was a Rifle Plt Ldr and 81mm Plt Ldr in the 101. Then later in Mech Co Cdr(M113s) in a Mech Hvy Bde in the 18th ABN XXX. From '79-'90 …

An 11 man Inf Sqd had 1 M60 MMG, 2 M249 SAWs/LMGs, 2 M203 GLs, and an M47 MAW. The rest packed M16s. With Mech add an M2 .50 Cal HMG, which usually stayed on the track/M113. Along with the Drv & TC, which was from the 11 man Sqd. Both packed M16s.

No, that's simply not the case in reality

No … that is the reality … at least from my experiences. If my M60 MMG/GPMG had a 6-8 member crew … I'd have no one to do much of anything else !

My original post was about for gaming purposes as well as a little reality … And was referring to Inf Wpns, i.e. MGs & Mortars. Not any type of FA.

Of course it was not during WWII with the UK Army. So … But my Father was a US ARMY INF SGT in WWII in the ETO.

And again … you very rarely are up to 100% strength. What the TO&Es say vs what's on hand. And units in combat, e.g. in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc., were rarely up to 100% strength. That is the reality.

I've deployed my Rifle Plt with 18 of 36 authorized.
Or my Mech Co. with 68 of 112 authorized. And again I was not in WWII.

Private Matter. It's just a case of here we go again. Snarky comments seem to be the norm these days on TMP. Of course the problem is that if I'd posted this to the Chain of Command board then likely I'd not be offending anyone. But there is no Chain of Command board, despite its popularity.

Legion 4. Oh, sorry, is this another of those "I'm right, you're wrong" threads? I have no idea what your Vietnam related experiences were, but British support weapons in WWII tended to begin each operation with a full crew complement due to a solid system of replacements. Yes, during an operation they would suffer casualties, but then they'd be withdrawn from the line and brought up to strength. Same with tank crews who'd get replacements after each casualty. Some weapons need a certain strength crew to operate them efficiently. To be honest, that wasn't my problem anyway, I just wished companies would produce more crew for crewed weapons. As three men is not enough for most of them.

If we're talking about infantry support weapons, and not heavy anti-tank or field artillery, then three crew is enough for most purposes. The exception being the anti tank platoon 6 pdrs where you will need a couple of extra bods per gun – these shouldn't be too difficult to source.

Let's look at the establishment of a WW2 British infantry mortar section:

2 carriers each with one 3 in mortar and five men, plus ammunition (off the top of my head 66 rounds per barrel). A total of 10 men.

Each vehicle requires a driver. The first carries the section sergeant and three mortar numbers. The second vehicle carries the section corporal and the other three mortar numbers.

When they come into action, the sergeant will deploy forward with the infantry company they are supporting. His role is that of forward observer. He will send target information by radio to the section corporal who remains with the mortars and controls their fire. Only three men per mortar actually crew the weapon. The other four men in the section have their own jobs to do.

I didn't serve in WW2 but I do speak from experience – I am currently serving as a mortar platoon 2ic. The only differences today are that we have 3 mortars per section and the sergeant no longer acts as observer as we have dedicated MFC's. We still only have a three man crew per det.

Of course the problem is that if I'd posted this to the Chain of Command board then likely I'd not be offending anyone.

I am not offended by any of it, but it seems others are. I gave what I thought was quite useful advice on how to get the figures folks wanted and I get back a lot of attitude about how the advice is useless as the suggestions are for the wrong army and that the packs of spare crew are not what was wanted anyway. Up to you guys now to sort it.
Have been googling images of WW2 mortar and HMG crews in action and a lot of the pics show just 3 crew round the weapon. Those that show more have guys stood behind with their fingers in their ears, for mortars, or prone round the gun with personal weapons for HMG's. Standing with fingers in ears is a common gun crew action pose too. Given the small area a CoC table represents a 3" AT gun on table is very close to the action. Wouldn't the crew either be frantically trying to hook up the gun to the tow prior to bugging out or picking up personal weapons to fight off the infantry squad that is getting very close?

But there is no Chain of Command board, despite its popularity.

Have you asked Bill to add one? He recently added 15mm and 28mm WW2 boards after someone requested them. You can also suggest it as a topic for a poll. I got the Old School Wargaming board added after a poll.

Someone asked recently and was told no. Apparently a whole range of new boards will be "coming soon". In the meantime we have boards for rule sets nobody plays and ignore some of the most popular sets. It does make me wonder about what the future will be for this site.

Legion 4. Oh, sorry, is this another of those "I'm right, you're wrong" threads? I have no idea what your Vietnam related experiences were, but British support weapons in WWII tended to begin each operation with a full crew complement due to a solid system of replacements.

Didn't say anything about anybody being right or wrong. And I even noted that I was not in WWII. Plus to make clear, my time on active service was '79-'90. I missed the war in Vietnam. I try to make that clear often.

Now all that being said, I'm a big fan of do what works for you … not me, generally, even in war gaming. I was only trying to add my input. I didn't mean to offend of upset. You said I was unrealistic …

No, that's simply not the case in reality

I only responded … including using emojis … e.g.

And again … list is a site about playing with Toy Soldiers … nothing for adults to get upset about … Again … Playing With Toys … Let's all keep it "friendly" …

And again I agree with Windy Miller … as one former mortar guy to current mortar guy …

I didn't serve in WW2 but I do speak from experience – I am currently serving as a mortar platoon 2ic. The only differences today are that we have 3 mortars per section and the sergeant no longer acts as observer as we have dedicated MFC's. We still only have a three man crew per det.

I play 1:1 and in the game the extra crewmen are vital to keep the weapon running when it gets shot at. In real life they are humping ammo but my little plastic riflemen are taking hits so the gunners don't have to.

I play 1:1 and in the game the extra crewmen are vital to keep the weapon running when it gets shot at.

This, and the fact that the desired figures should be 28mm and British, are key points that were missed from the original post. Had they been incuded then, I venture to suggest, the replies might well have been very different.

I don't play CoC but I have a copy of the rules. It seems that the more figures there are in the gun crew the more casualties it can take before the gun becomes useless. "But that's common to many/most rules" I hear you say. Yes, but whilst many rules abstract the number of crew down, CoC asks you to field the precise historical number of crew. Therefore it's important for that game to have these extra figures.

So, had the original post been more explanatory then perhaps some of the ensuing allegations of ‘snark' would not have been necessary. BTW, is ‘snark' the new black? I don't remember this word being used here in the past, but since it became an unwritten rule a short while ago almost every topic I read contains it somewhere. Oh well ….

Ah … but what would TMP be without the occasional drama, upset, etc., revolving around adults(?) playing with toy soldiers …

Northern Monkey TooFatLardies do have a forum and a board for most of their rule sets on it including one for CoC.

link

The Rubicon PaK38 comes with 5 crew

This discussion has piqued my professional interest, especially Northern Monkey's insistence that the 3 in mortar had a crew of six. I kept thinking how on earth do you fit six men, a mortar and sixty odd bombs into a Universal Carrier? It'd be a bloody tight squeeze!

So I did some digging and found a training film from the 1930's (just after the 3 inch came into service). In it you see a mortar team coming into action and there are indeed six of them – a commander, three mortar numbers, and two ammunition carriers. It seems that originally the 3 in mortar was intended to be used in a similar way to the later 2 in. Basically as immediate fire support just behind the attacking infantry. However manpacking the mortar in this way was clearly manpower intensive for only limited effect – between the six of them they could carry less than two dozen rounds. This makes sense as it originally only had a range of 1600 yards.

However tactical doctrine is constantly evolving and this method was pretty much abandoned in favour of grouping all the mortars together in Support Company and providing vehicles to cart them around in. Thus by 1942/3 with the introduction of the improved version with an increased range of 2800 yards, we see mortars working in sections of two and transported in Carriers. This had many advantages; increased mobility (I can tell you for free that manpacking a mortar is not fun!), the ability to carry a considerably larger quantity of ammunition – thus being able to provide much more effective fire support, and the reduction of the crew to three men per mortar as the ammunition carriers were no longer needed.

Thus I'd say that if you are gaming an early war scenario, or an area where motor transport was not available then you do need six crew per mortar. If however your mortar platoon has Carriers then three men is correct.

Windy Miller
"I kept thinking how on earth do you fit six men, a mortar and sixty odd bombs into a Universal Carrier? It'd be a bloody tight squeeze!"
That chain of thought makes me think you haven't served in the British army.
Question:- What is the capacity of this vehicle?

British NCO Answer:- How many men and how much kit do I need to move?

The three crew standard basic is probaably a throw back to the "Featherstone/Grant/Airfix generation.

Fatman

I did offer detail of the British crew further up the thread for the 1943-45 period;

"3-inch mortar detachment (in Inf and Mot Bns and Recce Regts); 5 men in each detachment, with NCO, three mortar numbers and a driver-mechanic for the Universal carrier. Drivers as noted above would stay with the vehicle. Where the Section Sjt was acting as a controller with a Rifle Coy the Section Cpl (or L/Sjt) would be back with the two firing detachments and the 1944 Mortar Pl manual does actually show a three man crew per weapon."

It was actually the same from the 1941 establishment onward, with a few minor changes to Pl personnel.

The carrier did indeed haul 66 bombs, with a total available per mortar of 156 (the other 90 rounds being carried on three 15-cwts and a 3-tonner.

Just to note that other nations had more larger mortar crew detachments; a US Inf Bn 81-mm Mortar Squad was eight as I recall, German about 20 men for two 8-cm tubes, while the Rec Army eventually dropped to six.

Gary

while the Rec Army eventually dropped to six.

Yesterday I was browsing Zaloga's book Companion to the Red Army, looking for info about heavy weapon crews in the December 1942 infantry battalion TOE (which tended to be rather economic with manpower. In this TOE, the 82 mm mortar teams in the mortar company were actually five man strong, but the team did not contain a transport and driver – these were instead part of the platoon HQ.

Other heavy weapons had following crews:
- Maxim MG: 4 men in rifle company (including a horse-drwan cart and a driver), 5 men in MG company (no transport or driver)
- 45 mm anti-tank gun: 6 men (including a horse-drawn wagon and driver)
- Anti-tank rifle: 2 men
- 50 mm mortar: 3 men

It is interesting that the single MG team in the rifle company is smaller than the ones in MG companies – though I guess when needed the company commander could temporarily assign a number of riflemen as ammo carriers. Also, the only cart in the rifle company TOE seems to have been assigned to this MG team.

On the regimental level there was also a 120 mm mortar battery and 76 mm infantry gun battery, but no internal manpower division was provided for these units in the book.

That table for the Dec1942 Rifle Regt in the Handbook/Companion is something of a reconstruction, and does incorporate a few errors (though in some respects is remarkably close).

The 82-mm Mortar Coy isn't oddly described down to Squad detail in the actual Shtat. It lists three Pl cdmrs, nine each of Sgt Squad cdmrs, Junior Sgt asst cmdrs, and wagon leaders (each with a horse and cart) and a total 27 mortar numbers. While it doesn't specify, to my eye that resolves into three Squads of six under an officer (with no Pl Sgt or runners).

The MG Squad is shown as six men, Sgt, JunSgt gunner, an Asst gunner and two gun numbers, and a wagon leader with a horse and cart. In the MG Coy the Squads have the same first five members, but for carriage of three Maxims there was one horse and cart and one two horse wagon.

Gary