"Can I ask the FoW/Team Yankee folks for some help?" Topic

Hey guys and gals!

So, I am not as familiar with the Battlefront games as I should be.

I was hoping you dedicated players could help me out?

If a company were to come out with a line of 15mm tanks and assorted armor as less-expensive (although no less quality) options to Battlefront's sets, what would you guys recommend being…

A) the real basic starter sets for WWII (what vehicles and how many?)

B) the real basic starter sets for Team Yankee (what vehicles and how many?)

and

C) the most popular "upgrade" packs (again, what vehicles and how many?)

Any help you guys can offer would be HUGELY appreciated! I've done some looking around, but I really want your genuine thoughts and experiences… there are just SOOOOO many sets that I am not sure which are the most important, key, core ones.

Anyway, thanks in advance all!:)

Thanks guys!

A company has already done this. Plastic Soldier Company.

I would say to make an investment (business expense) in the books and see for yourself?

Hi!

Yep, I am aware of their stuff… love it!:)

Maybe I should have been a bit more direct; I am looking at doing something similar, but in a REALLY cost efficient manner… cheaper even than the Plastic Soldier company… but I wasn't entirely sure what the dedicated Fow/Team Yankee people would *want*.

Team Yankee is a bit more simple, because it is still so new… the M113 box, the M163 box, the LAV box, and the Abrams box seem like the key ones. That's easy for someone to just read for themselves.

But especially for Flames of War… for a guy who doesn't know the game or range as well as you guys, I wasn't sure… if there were, say, six boxed sets to focus on, which are the ones people would find the most useful to fill out their armies?

Edit: Neal, sure, but the thing is, there is just so much out there there I'm not sure a casual like me would actually be able to BEST figure out what the players actually USE. I don't know anyone who plays, otherwise I could just ask them… but just looking at books doesn't really give you the best feel, you know?

I am not too familiar with the exact preferences of FoW players, but for WWII in general (and there are plenty of people playing other games than FoW) I would suggest following principles for selecting what to manufacture:

1.) Equipment that saw service in 1943-45 tends to be more popular than the earlier war stuff
2.) Equipment that was historically manufactured and fielded in large numbers is likely to be more popular than more obscure stuff
3.) German equipment is likely most popular (since they fought against pretty much everyone else at some point), followed by US, Soviets and British equipment

Based on the above, I would suggest the following list of vehicles to consider:

- Germans: late model Panzer IV, Panther, StuG IIIG, Sdkfz 251 Halftrack
- US: M4A3 Sherman, M3 Halftrack, M5 Stuart
- Soviet Union: T34 (with 76 or 85 mm guns)
- British: Cromwell, Churchill, Universal Carrier

Go with the current sexy units. T80 T64 BMP M1 with the bits and bobs we all love. Stowage, variants, etc……?

As for the number of vehicles per set, providing a number of vehicles matching a full-strenght historical platoon (ie. 3-5 vehicles) per kit might not be bad starting point to consider…

If you want to save money, go 6mm/ 1/285 scale. More bang for your buck, and the game works with the existing ranges (you don't really need to convert- it's actually fun that way).

You could add Tigers for the Germans and JSII's for the Russians. Tigers always sell well.

"Do what the Romans do" as far as how many to include in a starter box.

I assume you'll be releasing plastic tanks and vehicles as opposed to all metal or metal/resin hybrids since they're going to be even cheaper than PSC's offerings.

Regardless of period (WWII or modern), plastic vehicles are released in boxes of fours or fives from what I have seen from both BF and PSC.

Aircraft and helicopters should come in boxes of twos or fours.

You should also offer models individually a la carte for people to fill out their units. These typically can be marked up by 20 to 25 percent from the per vehicle cost in a box set. So for instance if a platoon box of 5 vehicles is offered at $30 USD, one vehicle would cost between $7.20 USD and $7.50 USD

Now may I suggest early Bradleys and Challenger 1's as your first plastic box sets?

Hi guys!

Thanks so much for the guidance… yeah, I wouldn't even be able to GUESS what the "hot units" are out of the 1,233,802 boxed sets are!:D

And yeah, Fanatik, there will DEFINITELY be al la carte stuff, including a host of vehicles that we don't think anyone else offers… so it should be good for those people who are wanting to fill out their force with that one tank that was only produced in October of 1943 in a single factory on the Eastern front!

Selling a set with enough tracks for a real company would be nice. A lot of US players use the mech company and that is an expensive investment as you need 13 of the things just to carry grunts. That doesn´t count scouts, ITVs, and Flyswatters. So more M113s would be great.

Ditto for BMPs. You need a lot of them for an army and they get expensive too. You don´t need as many of them as you need M113s, but fielding a full motor rifle battalion can be crazy expensive.

I haven´t even started with their necessary dismounts…

Tank companies are a lot cheaper $ wise, but they are pretty brittle due to their smaller team count.

So speaking as a Team Yankee player finding a cheaper source for mech infantry would be great!

So you're wanting to figure out what to put into starter sets?

I'd start by getting some of Battlefront's books and familiarizing yourself with how players have to create army lists, looking at the core units players are required to take when making a formations. That is going to immediately begin to narrow down what you are looking at.

Next, consider your audience: Customers who buy starter sets are either looking to get into the game quickly or are established players looking to build out their existing forces with cheap army deals. Battlefront's current boxed army sets are more a collection of random units that you can in some way throw together to field as a cohesive force, designed to wow a new player who doesn't yet understand the game with the selection of neat toys in the box all fitting under a certain target price point.

IMO, a better way to create a core starter force is to offer a boxed set that has an HQ and two identical core units (maybe 3, depends on the force) packaged along with a useful support unit or two. Something that makes a useful, cohesive and functional starter army list that isn't a collection of seemingly random units.

Tgunner, that's PERFECT; that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Even reading what I can find about the army lists, someone who doesn't play the game just won't pick up on that, you know?

Dameon, yeah, that sort of thing. The thing is, as I mentioned, I can look at the army lists, but its you guys, the players, who REALLY understand it, you know?

Like… I'm familiar with FFGs Armada and X-Wing; there are DEFINITE metas that are popular, and ships that people need a lot of, but there are also ships that people don't need. It's near impossible to figure that out from the rules; its the players who are usually the best resource, you know?

I appreciate all the feedback, guys!:)

German vehicles are pretty saturated at the moment. Between the Big Three (BF, PSC and Zvezda) there is already a wide collection of everything basic. I don't think breaking into that market would be easy.
If you are doing World War 2, I recommend doing a KV-1 box set, with turret option for KV-1E(extra panels to glue on) and/or KV-1s (with 85mm option). No one has done KV-1 in plastic except Zvezda and that's a nice void you can fill.
A plastic jeep box could also be something interesting to make, an ubiquitous vehicle used on many fronts and many decades, mounting a wild varieties of weapons from 50.cal machine gun to TOW missile.

Thanks LDC… done and done!

Yes, plastic Jeeps would be a killer app. Can never have enough of them!

Though you'd need to decide on WW2 Jeeps, Korea/Vietnam M38 Jeeps, or M151 Jeeps. For the record, nobody makes M151s in plastic, and I'm not sure anyone makes them in metal (I expect someone to point them out to me now that I've claimed it )

Another potentially good seller would be plastic trucks like 5-tons or 7-tons. Not many sellers even in metal and you technically need a lot of them.

Plastic AH1 Cobras with all the options would be good. The Marines use a twin-engine version that BF doesn't even make! If you break the parts in the right places, you can make all the versions from one set of sprues, both single and twin engines (and from AH1G to -Z!).

I personally would also like plastic BMDs for Russian Airborne, but that's probably a small seller until BF gets around to doing mechanized VDV.

I was under the impression that the latest version of FOW WW2 game and Team Yankee needed the cards for play and the cards were introduced to prevent or curb this type of activity.

But there are plenty of other rulesets that you could look at such as produced by the Lardies ,Battlegroup etc.

You can buy the cards separately.

If a company were to come out with a line of 15mm tanks and assorted armor as less-expensive (although no less quality) options to Battlefront's sets, what would you guys recommend being…

A) the real basic starter sets for WWII (what vehicles and how many?)

I won't comment on the modern stuff, but looking at WWII in 15mm I have a few thoughts.

If your market is 15mm and mostly the FOW crowd, Id look at vehicles for 1942-43 for the Eastern Front. Flames of War in Version 4 has just "re-done" Mid War, but started in North Africa. They have nearly completed their planned releases there, releasing Italians with a British book and things like plastic Churchills to come. From there they will no doubt do the same thing they did last time: start on the Eastern Front at Stalingrad and then move to Kursk.

Thus, if I was looking to get into the 15mm WWII market, I would start with vehicles appropriate to the 1942-43 period on the Eastern Front, for starters. Obviously, a Panzer III on the EF is the same as a Panzer III for the Desert or Tunisia, etc., but my focus would be Germans vs. Soviets first, build on later for the rest if needed. You are a little late though as both BF and PSC have a significant number of plastic kits for relevant vehicles. But 15mm WWII is more than just FOW (increasingly so), and there are a great many interested gamers who are interested in the Eastern Front.

More information would be helpful as to your intentions, but I understand that you may not wish to give it.

You can buy the cards separately.

Actually, many you cannot.

CdlT

So, what cards are missing from the WW2 sets?

From a new release as an example:

The Italian Command Card List

Motociclisti – Build, Unit
Motorcycle Company – Build, Formation
AB41 Armoured Car Company – Build, Formation
L6/40 Scout Tank Company – Build, Formation
L6/40 Light Tank Company – Build, Formation
Assault Engineer Company – Build, Formation
Paolo Caccia – Build, Formation
Pietro Bruno – Warrior
Luigi Pascucci – Warrior
Iron Men – Unit
Fast Reflexes – Formation
I Always Hit My Target – Unit
Tactical Brilliance – Unit
Autocannone – Unit
Never Misses – Unit
Captured 25 PDR Artillery- Build, Unit
Sahariana – Force
Legions Of Rome – Build, Unit
Believe! Obey! Fight! – Formation
Front Line Fighter – Formation
Hidden In Plain Sight – Formation
Heroism – Force
Diversionary Tactics – Force
For Italy! – Force
Charmed Life – Formation
Cut Them Down – Formation
Fortify The Building – Formation
Marksman – Formation
Dead Eye – Unit
Dummy Minefield – Force
Ferocious Valour – Formation
Pazzaglia Bombs – Unit
20mm AA Weapons Platoon – Build, Unit
Stuka Support – Build, Force
Softskin Transport – Build, Unit
Blackshirts – Build, Unit

These are "Command Cards", the set you can buy. See any M14/41 card in this pack? Semovente 75? Bersaglieri? No. They are the most common cards you will need, and they are included now only with the "official FOW miniatures". The vast majority of those cannot be bought separately from the new box or blister sets. It's the same for the DAK, British and US releases, and Team Yankee is much the same (worse in a few instances).

CdlT

Very smart marketing by Battlefront. They initially tried to forbid non-BF miniatures but meet with resistance. The Command Card trick seems to be how they can avoid competition.

You may wish to reconsider your plan to cater to 15mm Flames of War. You'd be better off supporting games that allow (and encourage) competition among manufactures. PSC does 20mm models with no flack from producers of 20mm games (like me). In fact we encourge new companies as this can only work to our players benefit.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame And Glory Games

Given how poorly FOW Version 4 (or more correctly, V$…) is actually doing, it doesn't look like such smart marketing after all…

CdlT