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"capacity of a Krupp Protze sdkfz 70?" Topic


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797 hits since 30 Jan 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

donlowry30 Jan 2018 8:59 p.m. PST

I have seen conflicting data on how many motorized infantrymen were normally carried by a Protze sdkfz 70 light truck -- from 6 to 10. What was it? Did it take two of them to carry a rifle gruppe? or just one?

Fire at Will30 Jan 2018 10:56 p.m. PST

You are mixing up the protze (limber) version designated sdkfz 69 with the troop carrier sdkfz 70. The sdkfz 69 carries 6 plus ammo and the sdkfz 70 carries 10.

Gaz004530 Jan 2018 11:05 p.m. PST

Depends if they are trying to escape the Red Army!

donlowry31 Jan 2018 9:01 a.m. PST

So each sdkfz carried an entire rifle gruppe (section)?

I'm assuming that of the 10, 2 were up front and 8 were in the back – right? So 1 of the 10 was the driver?

Also: Did each truck have a radio? If not, how many (if any)? Company Co.? Platoon leaders?

Starfury Rider31 Jan 2018 11:59 a.m. PST

OK, lot of questions, but I think we can clear up a few.

I've seen a scheme (not an actual KStN though) for a Schutzen Coy based on Kfz70 transport. It isn't dated but looks early war to my eye, say 1939-40ish.

The Pl had seven Kfz70s and one motorcycle combination. Somewhat disappointingly the Rifle Platoon was just the standard version from the 1937 KStN, but on wheels.

Pl HQ – Officer, messenger, 5-cm mortar detachment (3 men), stretcher-bearer and driver with Kfz70.

Two messengers and one motorcyclist with combination.

Three Squads, each – Squad Leader, 4 riflemen, 2 LMG numbers, driver with first Kfz70; Assistant Leader, 3 riflemen, 2 LMG numbers and driver with second Kfz70.

There's also a schematic showing KStN 1114 of Nov1941, which has seen some changes.

Pl HQ – Officer, NCO, messenger and driver with Kfz15 car. Also motorcyclist with solo machine. (The stretcher-bearer is noted bunking in with the final Kfz70).

Three Squads, each – Squad Leader, 5 riflemen/LMG numbers and driver with first Kfz70; Assistant Leader, 5 riflemen/LMG numbers and driver with second Kfz70.

Individual vehicle loading I've not seen, but two up front and the rest in the back sounds right.

I don't think there was ever a radio per truck. The earliest radio net schematic I've seen is from late 1943ish and only specifies one 'b' set and one 'f' set per motorised Pl. Coy HQ had one 'b' and one 'g' set and the Hvy Pl just a 'b' set.

Gary

donlowry31 Jan 2018 5:10 p.m. PST

Starfury: That looks more like what I had -- two trucks per gruppe (section), and a 7th one for the 5cm mortar. That was for 1941.

Martin Rapier31 Jan 2018 11:15 p.m. PST

It shows the same thing in my Niehorsters on early war motorised schutzen, two kfz70 per gruppe. Those rifle sections were pretty big!

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP01 Feb 2018 4:50 a.m. PST

Something I have always wanted to know. I know they were quite common in Europe etc. but were these ever used by the DAK ? I have never seen a picture of them being used in Africa .

deephorse01 Feb 2018 6:35 a.m. PST

Just found one photo of a Protze, said to be in North Africa. It's following a SdKfz 7 which is towing a 8.8cm Flak. The terrain certainly looks as though it could be North Africa. Unfortunately I can't link to it, or reproduce it here because it's on Pinterest, unless someone knows how that can be done.

deephorse01 Feb 2018 6:43 a.m. PST

link

Here's a wargamer with Protzes in his D.A.K. force

And more evidence here

link

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP04 Feb 2018 3:31 a.m. PST

Many thanks for that. It must have been a very very rare beast for Africa .I think I will include one to tow a 20mm Flak gun. I think there is a need for more variety in soft skins for all the popular scales. Having all Blitzes just makes everything to uniform and not the adhoc appearance as it should be.

4th Cuirassier04 Feb 2018 4:27 a.m. PST

@ mysteron

For N Africa, if you want variety (correctly), what about British and Italian trucks?

deephorse04 Feb 2018 4:37 a.m. PST

I don't know about other scales, but in 20mm / 1/72 there is a fair bit of choice when it comes to German softskins. Plus, if you're gaming North Africa, you have all the captured British stuff available.

Fred Cartwright04 Feb 2018 6:19 a.m. PST

Here's a wargamer with Protzes in his D.A.K. force

And his family think it is the best wargaming site in the world, so he must be right! :-)

Starfury Rider04 Feb 2018 10:09 a.m. PST

The Kfz70 does still appear on 1942 KStN for those North African style Rifle Coys, with their own integral atk guns, so perhaps they lingered a little longer in the desert.

Gary

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP04 Feb 2018 11:18 a.m. PST

Another one for D.A.K.

picture

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2018 1:50 a.m. PST

You guys amaze me . I have scoured the internet lots of times and come up with blanks !

As regards trucks there isn't a great lot of choice in 15mm for the Brits. Everyone does the CMP . What's wrong with the Bedfords ?. I think the QL type was used later on.

4th Cuirassier05 Feb 2018 2:06 a.m. PST

Quite off topic but look how faded the red area of that flag is in Marc's photo.

I don't have things like that on any of my minis but it's an interesting thought that if one did the red ought to be pink.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2018 2:34 a.m. PST

Another interesting note on the picture is that I am guessing its possibly pre 42 when Germans had air superiority . So it is a "proper" DAK picture for the era I am doing and not a Tunisian picture.
Its interesting at how an unassuming vehicle can create this amount of interest.

deephorse05 Feb 2018 6:31 a.m. PST

Don't forget the SdKfz 10

picture

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2018 6:45 a.m. PST

Thanks mate. I have got quite a few of those for various tows already.

deephorse05 Feb 2018 7:18 a.m. PST

One reason that photos of DAK Protzes might be rare is that it was a comparatively rare vehicle in the Korps. In December of 1941 21Pz had around 150 off-road light trucks, a category that included the Protze. Production of the Protze ended in 1941 (some sources say 1942), so you are unlikely to find many replacement Protzes coming your way after 1941. So the number of serviceable vehicles will just keep dropping. By the summer of 1942 around half of the DAK's vehicle ‘fleet' was composed of captured machines.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP06 Feb 2018 1:41 a.m. PST

I agree. Another factor unlike most other theaters transport is essential in the dessert. So soft skins were sought after as targets and to capture.I have read quite a few instances whereby a small truck convoy fell into an enemy patrol. They just destroyed the transports and allowed the drivers etc to walk free after being allowed to take some water first. Therefore trucks had a much shorter life than perhaps in most other theaters. And as you say many captured examples were used by both sides. Italian trucks had a good reputation of being solid and reliable.

deephorse06 Feb 2018 7:05 a.m. PST

They just destroyed the transports and allowed the drivers etc to walk free after being allowed to take some water first. Therefore trucks had a much shorter life than perhaps in most other theaters.

That wasn't the only cause of a short life for wheeled transport. The desert conditions wore out everything that wasn't suitable for the climate/terrain, and German equipment had generally not been designed with the desert in mind.

In the summer of 1941, out of 1,000 trucks in 15Pz just 45 were four-wheel drive. 21Pz had only 74. Tank engines had their mileage life reduced by some 50%, whilst that of the Kubelwagen could manage just 20% of its normal mileage before needing overhaul.

deephorse22 Feb 2018 6:32 a.m. PST

Just took delivery of a new photo-book on the Protze this morning. All photos are said to be previously unpublished. There is one, just one, photo from North Africa showing two destroyed Protzes. Interestingly one (and therefore probably both of them) is a Luftwaffe vehicle, and it was towing a 2cm FlaK.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2018 1:22 a.m. PST

Thanks Deephorse thats very interesting. I am looking at that combo with the 2cm Flak .

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