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"A case of hidden genocide? Disintegration ..." Topic


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1,207 hits since 29 Jan 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP29 Jan 2018 1:10 p.m. PST

…and destruction of people of color in Napoleonic Europe, 1799–1815

Of possible interest?

"Migration, social mobility, and integration of new populations in late eighteenth-century Europe resulted in an expansion of diversity, which contributed to abolition and culminated in full civil rights between 1791 and 1799. This revolutionary experiment in equality faced both domestic and multinational opposition, which led to the genocidal purge of diversity in Europe and the wider world during the Napoleonic Era."
Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP29 Jan 2018 3:10 p.m. PST

Of course, it won't show me the article--only the abstract. But it sounds very like having a national language is going to turn out to be genocide.

News flash for academics: Scholars may enjoy studying peasants and tribesmen, but most people don't enjoy being such. Let them travel, study, own personal property and trade, and there's going to be a sharp drop-off in obscure languages, dialects and folkways. There will also be a sharp drop-off in poverty, ignorance and serfdom. Life is full of choices.

Personal logo Narratio Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 12:06 a.m. PST

+1 Robert. The myth of the 'Noble Savage' is hard to kill.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 11:14 a.m. PST

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Nine pound round31 Jan 2018 4:00 p.m. PST

Language like that does a serious injustice to actual genocide.

Brechtel19831 Jan 2018 6:32 p.m. PST

Genocide is also a twentieth century term, which was brought into existence because of the systematic mass murders of War II.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member31 Jan 2018 9:21 p.m. PST

What about what Napoleon did in Haiti? 100,000 Haitians were killed in just two years of war at the hands of the French. Truly savage. The Haitian Revolution was the most just war ever fought and it gave birth to the greatest and noblest country in the world.

Brechtel19801 Feb 2018 3:48 a.m. PST

Haiti is the greatest and most noble country in the world?

It is the poorest and worst governed in the Western Hemisphere. They have no middle class. They have poor, the majority of the population, and an 'upper' class who could care less about the rest of the population.

Hopefully, you're not going to start that nonsense about the Haitian situation based on that one book again…?

The Haitian Revolution didn't change the status of the average Haitian under Toussiant or anyone who succeeded him. It was a mess then, and a greater mess now.

And since Napoleon wasn't in Haiti to begin with, though he sent an army there that largely died of disease, the charge against Napoleon doesn't hold water.

MaggieC70 Supporting Member of TMP03 Feb 2018 12:23 p.m. PST

I can't recall the name of a French/Haitian male "writer/historian" who occasionally shows up on vaguely historical blogs--I believe his first name is Charles. What I do recall is reading a couple of his polemics about the French and Sante Domingue from practically the dawn of time forward, with some of the most outlandish claims about Haitian dominance in all realms. A perfect example, I think, of damaging one's case by extremism…

Lilian04 Feb 2018 5:32 p.m. PST

if there is a so-called "genocide" in Haïti it is the one concerning all the French créoles white people in 1803-1804 ordered by Dessalines, all the whites but few poles and germans should be extermined, after that remain only the blacks and the mulattoes replaced the whites as the new elites of the country

Brechtel19805 Feb 2018 6:12 a.m. PST

I can't recall the name of a French/Haitian male "writer/historian" who occasionally shows up on vaguely historical blogs--I believe his first name is Charles. What I do recall is reading a couple of his polemics about the French and Sante Domingue from practically the dawn of time forward, with some of the most outlandish claims about Haitian dominance in all realms. A perfect example, I think, of damaging one's case by extremism…

Was it one of these?

link

link

Brechtel19805 Feb 2018 6:14 a.m. PST

if there is a so-called "genocide" in Haïti it is the one concerning all the French créoles white people in 1803-1804 ordered by Dessalines, all the whites but few poles and germans should be extermined, after that remain only the blacks and the mulattoes replaced the whites as the new elites of the country

When Leclerc's army landed that was one of the first things that they found-murdered Europeans who lived in Haiti.

JC Herold makes the case that all Toussiant and his lieutenants did was change the name of the newly-liberated slaves. They did the same work and were definitely not 'upwardly mobile.'

Leclerc was initially successful but he and his army succumbed to disease. The British had the same problem in the Caribbean and lost as many to disease as the French did.

Brechtel19805 Feb 2018 6:25 a.m. PST

This might be of interest regarding the French expedition to Haiti. It is the comments of four Polish members of the expedition:

link

link

The four memoirs are by Peter Basil Wierzbicki, Kazimierz Ma³achowski, Jakub Filip Kierzkowski and Ludwik Mateusz Dembowski.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member09 Feb 2018 6:41 a.m. PST

That's one of the biggest myths of the Haitian Revolution. Those massacred in 1804 were killed because they were French, not because they were white/European. There were some Frenchmen who defected to the Haitian side and became generals in the rebel army! A Frenchman signed the Haitian Declaration of Independence. And as bloody as the war was, when compared to the atrocities the U.S. inflicted upon the Natives and blacks in the 19th century, what happened in Haiti was small in comparison. If the Haitian cause was so terrible, why did all the Poles defect from the French side? Huh?

Brechtel19809 Feb 2018 7:38 a.m. PST

Where is your evidence that 'all the Poles' 'defected' from the French side?

Which Frenchmen 'defected' to the Haitian side and became Haitian 'generals'?

Your analogy comparing the atrocities of the Haitian rebellion with the European and US Indian Wars as well as slavery are invalid.

I don't believe that your diatribe is based on either solid research or fact-based source material. Perhaps if you could list your sources the discussion could be more discerning.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member09 Feb 2018 10:12 a.m. PST

Read Philippe Girard's The slaves who defeated Napoleon. The Poles saw what the French were doing was wrong, and they even were called "the negroes of Europe" and given full Haitian citizenship for fighting with the rebels.
Gabriel Veret defected from the French side and fought with the rebels, becoming a general. Pierre Mallet was a Frenchman who signed the declaration of independence.
No, they are not invalid. The Haitian rebellion was a one time event, and Haiti has never seen such brutality since. The crimes in the U.S. and Europe went on for decades, and were on a much larger scale and still effect us today.
Only those who are against freedom and equality would consider the Haitian Revolution to be a bad thing.

Lilian09 Feb 2018 2:00 p.m. PST

?? the Poles were called the French of the North

and to say that Haïti has never seen such brutality since 1804 is just a nonsense, just remember the Duvalier, Fort Dimanche and the Tontons Macoutes who had chosen as official title the name of Mussolini's fascist blackshirts, what a program! And we don't speak about the "pneumatic" atrocities of the "father Lebrun" seen on the streets of Port-au-Prince…and the Haïtian patriots killed by the US Marines or the emigrants by the Dominicans
Don't forget that the Dessalines Christophe Soulouque and company have largely contributed to converted the second free republic of America in a disaster and their sons in waves of emigrants to United States Canada and Dominican Republic, that is also the reality of the great and sad history of Haïti, even Toussaint had slaves and restored the forced labor

Brechtel19810 Feb 2018 5:16 a.m. PST

Read Philippe Girard's The slaves who defeated Napoleon. The Poles saw what the French were doing was wrong, and they even were called "the negroes of Europe" and given full Haitian citizenship for fighting with the rebels.
Gabriel Veret defected from the French side and fought with the rebels, becoming a general. Pierre Mallet was a Frenchman who signed the declaration of independence.

Citations and page numbers would be helpful. Further, the source material for the 'information' would also be of use.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member10 Feb 2018 6:50 a.m. PST

Look in pages 266, 324, 325, and 297. The French were almost universally disliked among the colonists, including many of the Europeans. It's been hidden up because the narrative that everyone wants is that the Haitians were evil and bloodthirsty racists when nothing could be farther from the truth. It's probably a way to feel better about U.S. brutality, both then and now.

MaggieC70 Supporting Member of TMP10 Feb 2018 6:54 a.m. PST

Dessalines promoted Gabriel Veret to chef de brigade, and then to his adjutant-general, which, of course, is not at all a "general."

Sometimes, in a pinch, Google is your friend. In this case, I found Ardouin's five-volume history of Haiti.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member11 Feb 2018 6:13 p.m. PST

The point I was trying to make was that Frenchmen fought with the Haitians, because their cause was honourable and right. Haiti is a country that deserves to be respected and I will continue to do so.
Oh, and even if Toussaint did own slaves, remember that George Washington and the others fought a war against taxes only to tax their own citizens and then send an army against those who didn't want to pay in 1794!

MaggieC70 Supporting Member of TMP11 Feb 2018 6:58 p.m. PST

If you want to make a point, then it is always best if what you say is accurate. There are some very well-informed folks here, and they can recognize a gaffe when they see one.

And yes, some Frenchmen went over to the Haitian cause because they believed it was both right and honorable, but it was, after all, a small number, so it's best not to imply otherwise. That takes away from your argument.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make using L'Ouverture's owning slaves and Washington's confrontation with some western Pennsylvania farmers in 1794. The two are not comparable.

Please do respect Haiti; I don't think anyone here has said otherwise or said anything that was untrue about both past and present political, economic, and social conditions.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member11 Feb 2018 7:03 p.m. PST

You made it sound that it was hypocritical for Toussaint to own slaves while fighting a war to end slavery, I pointed out that Washington did the same thing, fighting a war to end taxes and then taxing others and killing them when they protested.
Anything negative about Haiti is untrue, as is the claim Europeans were murdered simply because of their ethnicity.

Brechtel19812 Feb 2018 4:09 a.m. PST

Anything negative about Haiti is untrue…

That is a grossly inaccurate statement. Unfortunately, too many of the statements made in your postings are in the same category.

The analogy between Toussaint and Washington that you made is a logical fallacy and is absolute nonsense.

Haitiansoldier Inactive Member12 Feb 2018 10:26 a.m. PST

That's not inaccurate at all. One of the most beautiful countries in the world, and the only founded on equality for all people.
Nonsense because you seem to love Washington and hate Toussaint. It goes the other way for me. Toussaint was a far better man than Washington.

MaggieC70 Supporting Member of TMP12 Feb 2018 11:47 a.m. PST

Referring to an analogy between two individuals as a logical fallacy--or a false equivalency--does not by any stretch of the intellect infer a preference for one individual and a dislike for the other.

I don't see a single post where anyone said that L'Ouverture was anything less than Washington or indeed any other historical figure. I don't see a post extolling Washington, either.

You would be better served to cease attributing sentiments, opinions, and statements to folks who have not expressed them in the manner you assume.

And I'm not going to argue with a fan about the merits of his hero-worship. It would be quite unscholarly, offer nothing of intellectual or historical value, and ultimately a waste of time.

Brechtel19822 Feb 2018 3:39 p.m. PST

Just for information:

Chef de Brigade was a regimental commander, equivalent to the old rank of colonel which was abolished by the Revolution, and later reinstated by Napoleon.

Adjutant General was a staff officer equivalent to colonel in the line. It would later be renamed as adjutant commandant.

Girard, the author of The Slaves Who Defeated Napoleon in the glossary of the book on page 429 mistakenly defines a demi-brigade as 'Basic unit of the French army (similar to a division).' It was the equivalent of the pre-Revolution regiment, not division. Tactically, the basic unit of the French army was the battalion for the infantry, the company for the artillery, and the squadron for the cavalry, not the regiment or demi-brigade.

Brechtel19822 Feb 2018 3:40 p.m. PST

Anything negative about Haiti is untrue…

As I now have a copy of the book, I would be very happy to discuss the particulars of it with you.

Brechtel19822 Feb 2018 6:23 p.m. PST

One of the most beautiful countries in the world…

If that is the case, why is the country an economic disaster?

In 1992 over 20,000 Haitians left the country in boats trying to get to the United States and ended up in Guantanamo Bay, which they believed to be Miami, Florida. If Haiti is so great, why did that migration happen?

The US created Joint Task Force Guantanamo to take care of the Haitian migrants who landed there. I was there and worked in the Haitian camps with the Haitian migrants.

If Haiti is so great, why did they leave and not want to go back?

Brechtel19801 Mar 2018 3:51 a.m. PST

This biography of the 'Blonde Bonaparte' might be interesting to read alongside Girard's book.

link

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