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691 hits since 21 Jan 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Supercilius Maximus21 Jan 2018 11:04 a.m. PST

Second attempt following the bug strike earlier:-

1) How many horses (4 or 6) pulled the following:-
- the limber for a "light" battery 6-pounder
- a "wurst" caisson

2) Did the schutzen of the 2nd Battalion of a Line Infantry regiment have a white lower half to their plumes?

3) Anyone have a breakdown of NCOs/squad organisation etc for typical grenadier and fusilier companies, and the schutzen detachments?

4) Wrede was almost entirely responsible for the new regulations relating to skirmishing (4. Abschnitt) – anyone know if these are available in English?

5) Is there an English translation of Bezzel's work Geschicte des Koniglich Bayerischen Heeres unter Max I Joseph von 1806 bis 1825 volume 6/1?

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2018 12:01 p.m. PST

2) Yes for 2nd battalion schuzten company – white base, green top; similarly for the 2nd battalion grenadier company white base & red top.
link
link

picture

Artilleryman22 Jan 2018 1:09 a.m. PST

1. In the light batteries, teams of six were usual for both gun and wurst teams.

2. Yes.

3. This might help.

"The strength of each company was increased to 185 soldiers by an Army Command dated 15 Sep 1806. Each company was now divided into four sections, each of 20 files, and 5 Schützen.

By the command of 10 Oct 1806 the regiments were allowed 'at most' two women per company in the field.

From 12 Aug 1808 each line infantry regiment had 2 grenadier companies and 6 fusilier companies. The light infantry battalions had four companies. The strength of a company was now fixed at 180 men.

The lessons of the Plank report were taken into account by the Army Order of 9 Mar 1809, with an increase in the Schützen to a fifth of the company strength (i.e. 36 Schützen) and was achieved by a supplement of qualified men from the companies. Also, each battalion received another sub-lieutenant as a second Schützen officer and a bugler. Each company also received two Vice corporals for the assigned Schützen."

4. Not as far as I am aware.

5. Not as far as I am aware.

Hope that helps.

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2018 2:00 a.m. PST

Wredes instructions can be found in bits and pieces in some regimental histories.

That is what I found

"1804

Jede Regiment hatte 4 Kadetten. 20 Mann jeder Kompagnie, darunter sechs Gefreite, waren als Schützen bestimmt und trugen Pulverhörner und grüne Huppen als Abzeichen ; die Schützenhornisten zählten zu den Hoboisten ; der Schützenoffizier genoß besondere Auszeichnung, wurde besonders ausgewählt und trug einen grünen Federbusch auf dem Hut.
S. 173

An Schrittarten gab es drei, den ordinären (88 in der Minute), den Geschwindschritt (132) und einen mittleren Schritt(100 – 104).
Das Laden beanspruchte achtzehn Tempos; das Scheibenschießen geschah auf Entfernungen von 120 – 210 Schritt.
Zum Exerzieren rückte die Kompagnie mit 80 zweigliedrigen Rotten aus, die Schützen standen gleichmäßig verteilt hinter den vier Zügen.
S. 173

Wurden sie im Bataillon verwendet, so traten sie unter Befehl des Schützenoffiziers; zur Bildung der Schützenlinie gingen sie durch die Lücke zwischen den Zügen vor, und stellten sich 50 – 80 Schritte vor der Kompagnie so auf, dass sie dieselbe beiderseits um etwas 8 – 10 Schritte überflügelten. Die Vorschriften über Verhalten und Verwendung der Schützen waren damals ungefähr dieselben, wie sie das Reglement noch nach dem deutsch-französischen Kriege enthielt.
S. 174

I am not aware that Bezzels works are translated, difficult to find either

1809

Am 9. März werden die Schützen auf ein Fünftel der Kopfstärke der Kompagnie (d.h. auf 36) vermehrt, aber nur teilweise mit Stutzen und Haubajonetten bewaffnet. Sie stehen in dem wiedereingeführten dritten Glied und sollen beim geschlossenen Feuer hauptsächlich die Gewehre laden. Um die im Gefecht den Kompanien entzogenen Schützenoffiziere zu ersetzen, werden "supernumeraire" Offiziere angestellt. Ferner enthält die Kompagnie nunmehr 2 Vizekaporale, das Regiment 4 Hornisten.
S. 219, 220

Dauer, Joseph : Geschichte des K. Bayerischen 10. Infanterie – Regiments Prinzregent Ludwig von 1664 bis 1907, Ingolstadt 1901
"

Supercilius Maximus22 Jan 2018 2:18 a.m. PST

Thanks to all who have replied. All very useful answers.

Artilleryman and von Winterfeldt, I wonder if you could help further? I am trying to piece together the schutzen set-up at above the company level, after reading John Gill's books and noting references to schutzen from an entire battalion and an entire regiment, being deployed as a single unit. I would be most grateful if you could confirm that this is broadly correct:

- Company: 1 senior NCO, 2 vice-corporals, 36 privates (7 with rifles)
- Battalion: 4x company (I assume the grenadier company schutzen were included) + 1 senior subaltern(?), 2 junior subalterns and 1 bugler
- Regiment: field officer(?)

When schutzen were grouped together in battalion-, or regimental-sized groups, were the rifle-armed men kept within their own company, or were gathered together as a distinct group?

Many thanks.

Allan F Mountford22 Jan 2018 2:35 a.m. PST

Company breakdown current for 1809:

OBER-STABS 1806-1811
1 Kommandeur (Oberst)
1 Oberstleutnant
2 Majors
2 Adjutants (At depot)
4 Junkers
1 Regiments-quartier-meister
1 Auditor
1 Oberartz
1 Regiments-chirurg
2 Unterchirurg
2 Probezeit-chirurg (Trainee surgeons)
1 Propst
1 Unter-propst
1 Regimentstrommel (Drum-major)
10 Hautboisten (Bandsmen)
1 Büchsenmacher (Gunsmith)

COMPANY ESTABLISHMENT 1806-1811
1 Hauptman
1 Oberleutnant
2 Unterleutnant
1 Feldwebel (Warrant officer)
1 Quartiermeistersergeant
4 Sergeant
6 Korporal
12 Gefreite
2 Trommel (Grenadiers and Füsiliers)
1 Pfeifer (Grenadiers only)
1 Zimmerman
20 Schützen
180 Füsiliers or Grenadiers

From 'The Army of The Kingdom of Bavaria 1792-1814' by W J Rawkins.

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2018 3:02 a.m. PST

Rawkins is wrong, the Schützen were increased in March 1809 to 36.

I will see what I can find – so far the Schützen seem to cover the front of a company

Supercilius Maximus22 Jan 2018 5:01 a.m. PST

von W – Also, weren't the schutzen numbered among the 180 rank-and-file? I had a feeling that they formed the third rank (or most of it), and when detached and combined, all four schutzen detachments in a battalion were numerically equivalent to a normal company without its schutzen detachment (ie 144).

As I understand it, the Oberstleutnant's (Lt Col) and 2nd Major's companies formed the depot of a typical two-battalion line regiment, but did one/both of those officers remain at the depot in charge of training/replacements, or did they serve in the field?

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 2:17 a.m. PST

@Supercilius Maximus

Very interesting questions – I won't be able to answer these, but I checked the above mentioned work by Bezzel – which I found online in a Polish library.

"
In der zerstreuten Ordnung treten an Stelle des Kommandos Signale (22) mit dem Horn. Winke und Zeichen wurden außerdem als sehr zweckmäßig empfohlen. Auf dem Ruf oder des Signal : Schützen vor ! Ziehen sich diese durch die freigemachten Lücke zwischen der einzelnen Züge vor die Front der Kompagnie und stellen sich so auf, daß sie letztere zu beiden Seiten um 8 bis 10 Schritte überflügeln. Dabei kommen die geraden Nummern als zweites Glied einen Schritt hinter und rechts seitwärts der ungeraden, das erste Glied bildenden Nummer zu stehen. Diese Gliederung ermöglichte, „daß die zwei zusammengetretenen Schützen sich als unzertrennlich und als zwei Männer ansehen, die bestimmt sind, in allen Gelegenheiten einer dem anderen nach Kräften beizustehen und zu Verteidigen"

Bezzel, S. 199

Im März 1809 erfolgten Aenderungen. Nach diese bestand der 5. Teil einer Kompagnie aus Schützen, von denen höchstens ein Fünftel mit Stutzen bewaffnet wurde. Die Schützenträger allein hatten Pulverhörner, aber alle Schützen waren durch grüne Huppen erkennbar. Die seit 1801 aufgegebene Aufstellung der Kompagnie in drei Glieder wurde erneute eingeführt. Das dritte Glied bestand nur aus Schützen und aus zum Tiraillieren besonders geeignete Leute, sogenannte Plänkler, die jedoch keine Abzeichen trugen. Man erhoffte sich durch das dritte Glied die Ermöglichung eines rascheren Massenfeuers, wenn ihnen das Laden der Gewehre zugewiesen wurde.

Bezzel S. 199

"

OK, some comments, Bezzel – who published in 1933 has clearly seen the 1804 regulations, of which a handwritten copy existed – in case of any serious and in depth research one would have to track this copy.

In 1804 we had 20 Schützen – in a company of about 180 – in two ranks.
Now back to the width per man discussion – 180 minus 20 Schützen gives about 160 rank and file, so first rank of 80 men would cover about – 60 cm per men – 48 meter.
The 20 Schützen fought in pairs – as can be seen from the first paragraph – they should form a screen for the company surceedring it at each side of about 8 – 10 paces – lets say another 12 meter, so a team of 10 – covers a front of 58 meter, a very thin screen indeed.

The whole concept crumbles in 1809 when in March 1809 the Bavarian infantry fell back to the three ranks.
Now the Schützen were increased to 36 – distinguised by the green "plume" – a fifth had rifles (Stutzen) – which would be 9 – the rest normal muskets. They were placed in the third rank. The rest of the third rank consisted of soldiers who were especially suitable for skirmishing – however they did not wear the green plume. One was hoping to increase to the third rank of a quicker mass firing due to the fact that the third rank could load guns and hand it back to the second rank (a sort of feux de deux rangs as in the French Army).
I wonder how this could have worked – the Schützen armed with a rifle wouldn't be able to load in the same speed as musket equipped men, and also they would be extremly reluctant to hand their precious rifles to a musketeer in front of them, also they would have to carry two amounts of ammunition – one for the rifle – the other for the musket.
Form French eye witness accounts it is known that the changing of the muskets from third to second rank and so on, was more or less a drill ground exercise and it didn't happen in the field.

So far I did not come across a reference how this skirmishers of the third rank did work anyway – did they split up in the "real" Schützen – or did they mix, or did the non plumed Schützen form a reserve.

And again, with the change of the 1811 regulations, this goes out the window again.

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 6:38 a.m. PST

An yes, the Schützen were numbered amongst the 180 rank and file – and not as Rawkings put it.

Supercilius Maximus23 Jan 2018 8:17 a.m. PST

von W – Thank you for your help. Do you have a link to the Polish website? My German is somewhat (ie very) rusty, but I can organise a meaningful (to me, at least) translation. It did occur to me, especially given their liking for two-rank lines, that the Bavarians might have been encouraged by Rumford to adopt British skirmishing/light infantry tactics from the AWI period.

Some further thoughts:-

1) In terms of the thinness of the skirmish screen, I would suggest that perhaps the genuine skirmishers might be augmented by volunteers, if needed?

2) I was wondering if the third rank, even after the new regulations in March 1809, would have formed a reserve behind each company, which is what I think happened in the Prussian army of the 1806 period (I may be wrong on this). If the entire third rank was detailed as skirmishers, then there would be 36 men with plumes and 24 without (three ranks of 60) – I must confess that I had always assumed the "un-plumed men" simply fed into ranks one and two as casualties occurred. I agree with you that it seems unlikely rifle-armed skirmishers would be expected to join in with the general passing around of loaded/unloaded weapons.

3) Given how often the schutzen were detached (as in away from the unit entirely, not just to skirmish in front of it) in the 1809 campaign, I was wondering if the "un-plumed third rankers" were used for skirmishing when the real skirmishers were no longer present (much like the "picked men" of British battalion companies who sometimes reinforced/replaced the "light bobs")?

Supercilius Maximus23 Jan 2018 8:20 a.m. PST

ps: 9 rifle-armed men would be 1/4 of the schutzen in a single company, not 1/5. Is that what you meant? I had always read 7 out of 36 (possibly 6 men and a junior NCO).

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 8:44 a.m. PST

I stand corrected on 7 rifles instead of 9 – still an odd number.

as for Bezzel

Bezzel. Geschichte des Königlich Bayerischen Heeres unter König Max I. Joseph von 1806 (1804) bis 1825. Vol. 6-1 1933:

link

hope that works, it is alas deja vu format.

The Prussian 3rd rank did not form a reserve in 1806.

It is difficult to asses what the Bavarians did, one would have to consult eye witness accounts – or comments how they did fight.

Maybe one has to consult the Exerzierreglment für das Bürger Militär, Bregenz 1809, from page 223 onwards – several chapters about the Schützen.

Also – maybe the drill regulations of 1823

Vorschriften über den Waffenübungen der königlich-baierischen Infanterie, München 1823 (in three parts)

You will find the above mentioned works on google books.

Supercilius Maximus24 Jan 2018 3:36 a.m. PST

Yes, 7 is a very odd number, isn't it.

Thank you for the link – a shame it's gothic script (looks like a lot of keyboard work for me!).

The Exerzierreglement fur das Burger Militar looks like it might be useful. Could you give me more information on it?

von Winterfeldt24 Jan 2018 4:13 a.m. PST

Here the link

link

those regulations are always quite interesting because there are much more comments as for the regulations for regular standing units.
So far the Bürgermilitär Kompanie was only half strength of a line company – and formed in two ranks.

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