Help support TMP


"Questions on 1809 Bavarians" Topic


31 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board



1,256 hits since 21 Jan 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member21 Jan 2018 12:04 p.m. PST

Second attempt following the bug strike earlier:-

1) How many horses (4 or 6) pulled the following:-
- the limber for a "light" battery 6-pounder
- a "wurst" caisson

2) Did the schutzen of the 2nd Battalion of a Line Infantry regiment have a white lower half to their plumes?

3) Anyone have a breakdown of NCOs/squad organisation etc for typical grenadier and fusilier companies, and the schutzen detachments?

4) Wrede was almost entirely responsible for the new regulations relating to skirmishing (4. Abschnitt) – anyone know if these are available in English?

5) Is there an English translation of Bezzel's work Geschicte des Koniglich Bayerischen Heeres unter Max I Joseph von 1806 bis 1825 volume 6/1?

Prince of Essling21 Jan 2018 1:01 p.m. PST

2) Yes for 2nd battalion schuzten company – white base, green top; similarly for the 2nd battalion grenadier company white base & red top.
link
link

picture

Artilleryman22 Jan 2018 2:09 a.m. PST

1. In the light batteries, teams of six were usual for both gun and wurst teams.

2. Yes.

3. This might help.

"The strength of each company was increased to 185 soldiers by an Army Command dated 15 Sep 1806. Each company was now divided into four sections, each of 20 files, and 5 Schützen.

By the command of 10 Oct 1806 the regiments were allowed 'at most' two women per company in the field.

From 12 Aug 1808 each line infantry regiment had 2 grenadier companies and 6 fusilier companies. The light infantry battalions had four companies. The strength of a company was now fixed at 180 men.

The lessons of the Plank report were taken into account by the Army Order of 9 Mar 1809, with an increase in the Schützen to a fifth of the company strength (i.e. 36 Schützen) and was achieved by a supplement of qualified men from the companies. Also, each battalion received another sub-lieutenant as a second Schützen officer and a bugler. Each company also received two Vice corporals for the assigned Schützen."

4. Not as far as I am aware.

5. Not as far as I am aware.

Hope that helps.

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2018 3:00 a.m. PST

Wredes instructions can be found in bits and pieces in some regimental histories.

That is what I found

"1804

Jede Regiment hatte 4 Kadetten. 20 Mann jeder Kompagnie, darunter sechs Gefreite, waren als Schützen bestimmt und trugen Pulverhörner und grüne Huppen als Abzeichen ; die Schützenhornisten zählten zu den Hoboisten ; der Schützenoffizier genoß besondere Auszeichnung, wurde besonders ausgewählt und trug einen grünen Federbusch auf dem Hut.
S. 173

An Schrittarten gab es drei, den ordinären (88 in der Minute), den Geschwindschritt (132) und einen mittleren Schritt(100 – 104).
Das Laden beanspruchte achtzehn Tempos; das Scheibenschießen geschah auf Entfernungen von 120 – 210 Schritt.
Zum Exerzieren rückte die Kompagnie mit 80 zweigliedrigen Rotten aus, die Schützen standen gleichmäßig verteilt hinter den vier Zügen.
S. 173

Wurden sie im Bataillon verwendet, so traten sie unter Befehl des Schützenoffiziers; zur Bildung der Schützenlinie gingen sie durch die Lücke zwischen den Zügen vor, und stellten sich 50 – 80 Schritte vor der Kompagnie so auf, dass sie dieselbe beiderseits um etwas 8 – 10 Schritte überflügelten. Die Vorschriften über Verhalten und Verwendung der Schützen waren damals ungefähr dieselben, wie sie das Reglement noch nach dem deutsch-französischen Kriege enthielt.
S. 174

I am not aware that Bezzels works are translated, difficult to find either

1809

Am 9. März werden die Schützen auf ein Fünftel der Kopfstärke der Kompagnie (d.h. auf 36) vermehrt, aber nur teilweise mit Stutzen und Haubajonetten bewaffnet. Sie stehen in dem wiedereingeführten dritten Glied und sollen beim geschlossenen Feuer hauptsächlich die Gewehre laden. Um die im Gefecht den Kompanien entzogenen Schützenoffiziere zu ersetzen, werden "supernumeraire" Offiziere angestellt. Ferner enthält die Kompagnie nunmehr 2 Vizekaporale, das Regiment 4 Hornisten.
S. 219, 220

Dauer, Joseph : Geschichte des K. Bayerischen 10. Infanterie – Regiments Prinzregent Ludwig von 1664 bis 1907, Ingolstadt 1901
"

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member22 Jan 2018 3:18 a.m. PST

Thanks to all who have replied. All very useful answers.

Artilleryman and von Winterfeldt, I wonder if you could help further? I am trying to piece together the schutzen set-up at above the company level, after reading John Gill's books and noting references to schutzen from an entire battalion and an entire regiment, being deployed as a single unit. I would be most grateful if you could confirm that this is broadly correct:

- Company: 1 senior NCO, 2 vice-corporals, 36 privates (7 with rifles)
- Battalion: 4x company (I assume the grenadier company schutzen were included) + 1 senior subaltern(?), 2 junior subalterns and 1 bugler
- Regiment: field officer(?)

When schutzen were grouped together in battalion-, or regimental-sized groups, were the rifle-armed men kept within their own company, or were gathered together as a distinct group?

Many thanks.

Allan F Mountford22 Jan 2018 3:35 a.m. PST

Company breakdown current for 1809:

OBER-STABS 1806-1811
1 Kommandeur (Oberst)
1 Oberstleutnant
2 Majors
2 Adjutants (At depot)
4 Junkers
1 Regiments-quartier-meister
1 Auditor
1 Oberartz
1 Regiments-chirurg
2 Unterchirurg
2 Probezeit-chirurg (Trainee surgeons)
1 Propst
1 Unter-propst
1 Regimentstrommel (Drum-major)
10 Hautboisten (Bandsmen)
1 Büchsenmacher (Gunsmith)

COMPANY ESTABLISHMENT 1806-1811
1 Hauptman
1 Oberleutnant
2 Unterleutnant
1 Feldwebel (Warrant officer)
1 Quartiermeistersergeant
4 Sergeant
6 Korporal
12 Gefreite
2 Trommel (Grenadiers and Füsiliers)
1 Pfeifer (Grenadiers only)
1 Zimmerman
20 Schützen
180 Füsiliers or Grenadiers

From 'The Army of The Kingdom of Bavaria 1792-1814' by W J Rawkins.

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2018 4:02 a.m. PST

Rawkins is wrong, the Schützen were increased in March 1809 to 36.

I will see what I can find – so far the Schützen seem to cover the front of a company

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member22 Jan 2018 6:01 a.m. PST

von W – Also, weren't the schutzen numbered among the 180 rank-and-file? I had a feeling that they formed the third rank (or most of it), and when detached and combined, all four schutzen detachments in a battalion were numerically equivalent to a normal company without its schutzen detachment (ie 144).

As I understand it, the Oberstleutnant's (Lt Col) and 2nd Major's companies formed the depot of a typical two-battalion line regiment, but did one/both of those officers remain at the depot in charge of training/replacements, or did they serve in the field?

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 3:17 a.m. PST

@Supercilius Maximus

Very interesting questions – I won't be able to answer these, but I checked the above mentioned work by Bezzel – which I found online in a Polish library.

"
In der zerstreuten Ordnung treten an Stelle des Kommandos Signale (22) mit dem Horn. Winke und Zeichen wurden außerdem als sehr zweckmäßig empfohlen. Auf dem Ruf oder des Signal : Schützen vor ! Ziehen sich diese durch die freigemachten Lücke zwischen der einzelnen Züge vor die Front der Kompagnie und stellen sich so auf, daß sie letztere zu beiden Seiten um 8 bis 10 Schritte überflügeln. Dabei kommen die geraden Nummern als zweites Glied einen Schritt hinter und rechts seitwärts der ungeraden, das erste Glied bildenden Nummer zu stehen. Diese Gliederung ermöglichte, „daß die zwei zusammengetretenen Schützen sich als unzertrennlich und als zwei Männer ansehen, die bestimmt sind, in allen Gelegenheiten einer dem anderen nach Kräften beizustehen und zu Verteidigen"

Bezzel, S. 199

Im März 1809 erfolgten Aenderungen. Nach diese bestand der 5. Teil einer Kompagnie aus Schützen, von denen höchstens ein Fünftel mit Stutzen bewaffnet wurde. Die Schützenträger allein hatten Pulverhörner, aber alle Schützen waren durch grüne Huppen erkennbar. Die seit 1801 aufgegebene Aufstellung der Kompagnie in drei Glieder wurde erneute eingeführt. Das dritte Glied bestand nur aus Schützen und aus zum Tiraillieren besonders geeignete Leute, sogenannte Plänkler, die jedoch keine Abzeichen trugen. Man erhoffte sich durch das dritte Glied die Ermöglichung eines rascheren Massenfeuers, wenn ihnen das Laden der Gewehre zugewiesen wurde.

Bezzel S. 199

"

OK, some comments, Bezzel – who published in 1933 has clearly seen the 1804 regulations, of which a handwritten copy existed – in case of any serious and in depth research one would have to track this copy.

In 1804 we had 20 Schützen – in a company of about 180 – in two ranks.
Now back to the width per man discussion – 180 minus 20 Schützen gives about 160 rank and file, so first rank of 80 men would cover about – 60 cm per men – 48 meter.
The 20 Schützen fought in pairs – as can be seen from the first paragraph – they should form a screen for the company surceedring it at each side of about 8 – 10 paces – lets say another 12 meter, so a team of 10 – covers a front of 58 meter, a very thin screen indeed.

The whole concept crumbles in 1809 when in March 1809 the Bavarian infantry fell back to the three ranks.
Now the Schützen were increased to 36 – distinguised by the green "plume" – a fifth had rifles (Stutzen) – which would be 9 – the rest normal muskets. They were placed in the third rank. The rest of the third rank consisted of soldiers who were especially suitable for skirmishing – however they did not wear the green plume. One was hoping to increase to the third rank of a quicker mass firing due to the fact that the third rank could load guns and hand it back to the second rank (a sort of feux de deux rangs as in the French Army).
I wonder how this could have worked – the Schützen armed with a rifle wouldn't be able to load in the same speed as musket equipped men, and also they would be extremly reluctant to hand their precious rifles to a musketeer in front of them, also they would have to carry two amounts of ammunition – one for the rifle – the other for the musket.
Form French eye witness accounts it is known that the changing of the muskets from third to second rank and so on, was more or less a drill ground exercise and it didn't happen in the field.

So far I did not come across a reference how this skirmishers of the third rank did work anyway – did they split up in the "real" Schützen – or did they mix, or did the non plumed Schützen form a reserve.

And again, with the change of the 1811 regulations, this goes out the window again.

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 7:38 a.m. PST

An yes, the Schützen were numbered amongst the 180 rank and file – and not as Rawkings put it.

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member23 Jan 2018 9:17 a.m. PST

von W – Thank you for your help. Do you have a link to the Polish website? My German is somewhat (ie very) rusty, but I can organise a meaningful (to me, at least) translation. It did occur to me, especially given their liking for two-rank lines, that the Bavarians might have been encouraged by Rumford to adopt British skirmishing/light infantry tactics from the AWI period.

Some further thoughts:-

1) In terms of the thinness of the skirmish screen, I would suggest that perhaps the genuine skirmishers might be augmented by volunteers, if needed?

2) I was wondering if the third rank, even after the new regulations in March 1809, would have formed a reserve behind each company, which is what I think happened in the Prussian army of the 1806 period (I may be wrong on this). If the entire third rank was detailed as skirmishers, then there would be 36 men with plumes and 24 without (three ranks of 60) – I must confess that I had always assumed the "un-plumed men" simply fed into ranks one and two as casualties occurred. I agree with you that it seems unlikely rifle-armed skirmishers would be expected to join in with the general passing around of loaded/unloaded weapons.

3) Given how often the schutzen were detached (as in away from the unit entirely, not just to skirmish in front of it) in the 1809 campaign, I was wondering if the "un-plumed third rankers" were used for skirmishing when the real skirmishers were no longer present (much like the "picked men" of British battalion companies who sometimes reinforced/replaced the "light bobs")?

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member23 Jan 2018 9:20 a.m. PST

ps: 9 rifle-armed men would be 1/4 of the schutzen in a single company, not 1/5. Is that what you meant? I had always read 7 out of 36 (possibly 6 men and a junior NCO).

von Winterfeldt23 Jan 2018 9:44 a.m. PST

I stand corrected on 7 rifles instead of 9 – still an odd number.

as for Bezzel

Bezzel. Geschichte des Königlich Bayerischen Heeres unter König Max I. Joseph von 1806 (1804) bis 1825. Vol. 6-1 1933:

link

hope that works, it is alas deja vu format.

The Prussian 3rd rank did not form a reserve in 1806.

It is difficult to asses what the Bavarians did, one would have to consult eye witness accounts – or comments how they did fight.

Maybe one has to consult the Exerzierreglment für das Bürger Militär, Bregenz 1809, from page 223 onwards – several chapters about the Schützen.

Also – maybe the drill regulations of 1823

Vorschriften über den Waffenübungen der königlich-baierischen Infanterie, München 1823 (in three parts)

You will find the above mentioned works on google books.

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member24 Jan 2018 4:36 a.m. PST

Yes, 7 is a very odd number, isn't it.

Thank you for the link – a shame it's gothic script (looks like a lot of keyboard work for me!).

The Exerzierreglement fur das Burger Militar looks like it might be useful. Could you give me more information on it?

von Winterfeldt24 Jan 2018 5:13 a.m. PST

Here the link

link

those regulations are always quite interesting because there are much more comments as for the regulations for regular standing units.
So far the Bürgermilitär Kompanie was only half strength of a line company – and formed in two ranks.

von Winterfeldt28 Feb 2018 5:30 a.m. PST

it took much longer than anticipated, but a lot of interesting material was found, note

Schütze = shooter
Schützen = shooters

Berg, Franz : Geschichte des königl. Bayer. 4. Jäger = Bataillons, 1. Theil, 1795 – 1825, Landshut 1887, Google books

War in der Napoleonischen Zeit des 5. Leichte Infanterie Bataillon

Am 2. September 1801 wurde die zweigliedrige Formation zum Exerzieren und Manövrieren ; die dreigliedrige für Paraden empfohlen.
Die leichte Infanterie hatte 140 Schritte in der Minute zu machen.
Berg, S. 123
(at 2. September 1801 it was ordere to form two ranks for exercising and manoeuvering ; The light infantry had to make 140 paces per minute.)

1804
Jede Compagnie ernannte 20 Schützen = 6 Gefreite und 14 Gemeine = welche mit Büchsen bewaffnet und durch grüne Huppen auf den Casquets ausgezeichnet waren.
Berg S.135
(1804
Each company designated / chose 20 Schützen – 6 Gefreite (sort of lance corporal) and 14 rank and file, who were armed with rifles (Büchsen) and distinguished by short green plumes at the helmets)

Weiterhin führte jede Compagnie einen Zimmermann (…)
Berg, S. 135
(further each company had a carpenter)

Am 17. April (1804) wurden die Signale für die Schützen bekannt gegeben, welche bis 1872 mit wenig Aenderungen in Gebrauch blieben : in jedem leichten Bataillon befanden sich unter den Hoboisten 2 Hörner mit Dis=Hörnern zur Signalabgabe für die Infanterie, welches als Manuscript im Kriegsministerium aufbewahrt ist.
Es enthält zwei Abschnitte, den ersten, „wie die Recrouten dressiert werden sollen" ; den zweiten „wie die Compagnie exerzieren sollen"; es ist im ersten in der Hauptsache mit dem Reglement von 1793 conform ; wesentliche Aenderungen bedingte im zweiten Theile die zweigliedrige Aufstellung und das Einführen der Schützen. (…)
Das Tempo für den ordinairen Schritt wurde auf 88, für den Deloyierschritt auf 120, den Geschindschritt auf 132 festgesetzt.
Berg, S. 135
(At 17th of April (1804) the signals were announced for the Schützen which stayed with small changes till 1872 in use. In each light battalion were amgonst the musicians 2 bugles with dis – bugles to perform the signals for the infantry which is preserved as manuscript in the war ministry.
It contains two parts – one how the recruit has to be drilled and the other how the company should exercise – in the first it is more or less identical with the 1793 regulations, more changements were required in the 2nd part due to the formation in two ranks and the introduction of the Schützen. As speed was fixed for the usual pace 88 – for the deployment pace 120 and for the fast pace 132 per minute)

Als neue Feuerart erscheint das „Heckenfeuer" (Rottenfeuer)
Berg, S. 136
(As new method of firing the Heckefeuer – firing by files appeares)

Zum Exerzieren rückt die zweigliedrige Compagnie mit 80 Rotten aus, wird in 4 Züge, deren je 2 eine Divison bildeten und jeder Zug in 4 Sections abgetheilt (…)
Berg, S. 136
(For exercising the company mobilizes in a compamy of two ranks with 80 files, is devided in 4 Züge (platoons) two of which form a division und each platoon is parted in 4 sections)

Hinter jedem Zug stunden mit 2 Schritte Abstand 5 Schützen, die zwei ältesten Schützengefreiten wurde zu Vice = Corporals ernannt, jedem einzelnen Schützen war der Platz genau vorgezeichnet.
Berg, S. 136
(Behind each platoons stood in 2 paces distance 5 Schützen, the two oldest Schützengefreiten were promoted to vice – corproals, for each Schützen his place was designated in great detail.)

Eine Detailinstruktion bestimmte das Verhalten der Schützen beim Vorrücken und Einrücken, Chargieren und bei deren Evolutionen.
Die Schützenline stund ungefähr 15 – 18 Schritte vor der Compagnie überflügelte dieselbe, die Schützen bildeten zwei Glieder, indem von den zwei zusammengehörenden das rechts befindliche einen Schritt seit= und rückwärts des anderen hat.
Hornsignale gab es 16, Trommelsignale 14 (Fußnote 1, Bataillons – Archiv, Abschrift des Manuscripts)
Berg, S. 136
(A detailed instruction determined the conduction of the Schützen when advancing and forming / reforming?, firing and for their evolutions.
The line of the Schützen stood about 15 to 18 paces in front of the company and was superseding it on the flanks.The Schützen formed two ranks, by which of the two belonging to each other – that one on the right had to be one pace side und rearward to the other.)

(…)endlich der vom 3. August, daß die Schützen aus der Musik zugetheilten Hornisten grüne Federbüsche auf den Hüten tragen sollten.
Berg, S. 137
(finally from the 3rd of August, the musicians who are designated to be the buglers should wear green plumes on the hats.

1809

In Dorfen wurde am 20. März (1809) dem Bataillon die allerhöchste Verordnung über die Vermehrung der Schützen und die dreigliedrige Formation zugetheilt, sofort wurde die Huppen für die Schützenhelme in Fertigung gegeben.
Berg. S. 210 /211
(In Dorfen the battalion received the highest order at the 20th of March (1809) for increasing the Schützen and the formation in three ranks, immediately the short green plumes were ordred to be produced.)


„Durch allerhöchstes Rescript vom 9. März (1809) wurde die Zahl der Schützen jeder Compagnie auf den fünften Theil des Standes, also 40 bei 200 und 30 bei 180 Feuergewehren vermehrt, von denen höchstens der fünfte Theil mit Stutzen bewaffnet und nur diese mit Pulverhörnern ausgerüstet sein durften.
Bei geringer Stärke der Compagnie mindestens die Schützenzahl nie unter 1/4.
Ein Ober = und Unterlieutenant mußten als permanente Schützenoffiziere gewählt werden = bei jeder Compagnie wurde zwei weitere Corporale zu den Schützendienst gewählt. Alle Schützen trugen die grüne Huppe.
Bei dieser Gelegenheit wurde genehmigt, daß die Compagnien und Bataillons in 3 Glieder aufstellen, die Schützen das dritte Glied bilden, wo diese nicht ausreichen, aber Leute gewählt werden, welche vorzügliche Eigenschaften und Fertigkeit zum Tirailleur = Dienstes besitzen ; diese heißen Plänkler, und wurden zur Verstärkung der Schützenlinie verwendet ; sie trugen keine besondere Auszeichnung."
Berg, S. 253/254
(by the hightest order of the 9th of March (1809) the number of the Schützen of each company was increased to the fifth of its strength, therefore 40 at 200 and 30 at 180 guns, at the maximum only a fith had to be armed with rifles and only those were given power horns.
At a smaller strength the number of the Schützen should never be less than 1/4.
A 1st and 2nd lieutenant were chosen for permanent officers of the Schützen – and for each companies two additional corporals were chosen for duty for the Schützen. All Schützen did wear the green plume.
At this circumstance it was approved, that the companies and battalions were formed in 3 ranks, the Schützen did form the third rank, and in case their numbers were not sufficient they were reinforeced by soldiers who were suitable in character and adroitness for the skirmishing(here Tirailleur, shooting) duty, they were called Plänkler (skrimishers); could be used to reinforce the skirmishing line, they did not wear a special distinction.)


„Der Generallieutenant Graf Ysenburg erhielt den Befehl sich mit dem Generallieutenant v. Deroy und Generalmajor v. Siebein zu benehmen und zu berichten :

1. Über den Abstand des 3. Gliedes,
2. die Oeffnung zum Durchziehen desselben,
3. über das Verhalten bei Rottenfeuer,
4. über ein signal zur Verstärkung der Schützenlinie durch die Plänkler.

Am 3. April (1809) erließ Generallieutenant v. Deroy an seine Division eine Instruktion zum Exerzieren, welche um Wesentlichen Folgendes enthielt:

Es bestehen nur 30 Schützen per Compagnie; sie bilden nicht das dritte Glied, sondern stehen 2 Schritte hinder demselben; wenn sie vorgerufen werden, formieren sie eine Compangie zu 3 Glieder sowohl in geschlossener als zerstreuter Ordnung und zwar in 4 Zügen, wenn 40 und mehr Rotten, zu zwei Zügen, wenn nicht 40 Rotten gebildet werden können.
Ebenso formieren sich hinsichtlich der Zahl der Züge die 4 Compagnien des Bataillons ; eine Section darf nicht unter 3 Rotten stark sein.
Das dritte Glied wird auf demselben Abstand wie des zweite gestellt.
Die Oeffnung zum Durchziehen der Schützen macht auf Commando der Zugkommandanten die erste Section jedes Zuges.
Das dritte Glied betheiligt sich nicht am Feuern, sondern wechselt mit dem zweiten Gliede das Gewehr, sowohl beim Battailon= als Rotten und Gliederfeuer.
Beim Bataillonsfeuer wird abwechselnd mit dem zweiten Gliede allein allein und mit dem ersten und zweiten Gliede zugleich gefeuert, beim Gliederfeuer zuerst zweimal mit dem zweiten und dann einmal mit dem ersten Gliede.
Das Quarree zu 6 Gliedern und die Colonne nach der Mitte ist fleißig zu üben.
Die Instruktion gibt für alle Bewegungen die Commandos und deren Ausführungen detailliert an.
Berg, S. 255

(1809

The Generallieutenant Graf Ysenburg received to order to mee with Generallieutenant v. Deroy and Generalmajor v. Siebbein and to report :

1. About the distance of the third rank
2. the openings to allow this to draw through
3. about the conduct about firing by file
4. about a signal to reinforce the skirmishing line by skirmishers.

General Deroy issued at that 3rd of April an instruction for his division for exercising, which in the main part consist of :

There are only 30 Schützen per company; they don't form the third rank, but stand two paces behind it; in case they are called forward they form a company of 3 ranks either in close or dispersed order of 4 platoons, when there are 40 or more files, and of 2 platoons when there are less than 40 files.
Likewise the 4 companies of the battalion will form their platoons, a section should not be smaller than 3 files.
The third rank takes the same distance as the second.
The opening, for allowing to pass through the Schützen is commanded by the platoon commander for the first section of each platoon.
The third rank is not firing, but changes with the third rank the gun, for the battalion-, file firings as well as firing by each rank.
At the battalion fire it is fired alternately with the second rank alone, und with the first and two rank together, at the rank firing firstly twice with the second and then once with the first rank.
The square of six ranks and the column to the middle has to be diligently practiced.
The instruction is naming in detailed fashion the commands and their execution.

not always litteraly translated but one should get the sense behind it.

von Winterfeldt01 Mar 2018 1:33 p.m. PST

Deroys instructions are very interesting and make a lot of sense.

There the Schützen received permanent officers, two – it would be stupid not to use them, as in the past there was really not that much of a need, when they just covered only the front of their company.

Deroy doesn't only create a sort of additonal company – but also a tactical reserve.

For ease of deloyment into open order – he choses to keep the files intact – a quick way and a lot of light infantry officers had the opinion that a team of three was much better than a team of two.

The Schützen officers would decide how to place their Schützen, how many files they would deploy in open order, how many they would keep in reserve.

The mix of muskets and rifles is benefical as well, muskets more for the offensive in the skirmishing and also very good at protecting the slower rifle loaders, while those could indeed take their time to pick officers there their musket comrades would keep the enemy busy.

Still some teeth aches – according to the previous regulations – at least in the light infantry the Schützen, 20 – had rifles, with the new regs of 1809 – this number was cut down – did they really hand in their rifles and take on muskets?

Also Deroy reduces them even more, instead of a fifth of full strength – in 1809 (36 to 40) – he allows only 30 Schützen per battalion. Immagine the dismay of those Schützen who had to take off their beloved green plumes and had to be back in rank and file.

Also was – the instruction, written for his division – eventually adopted for the rest of the Bavarian army??

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member06 Mar 2018 10:28 a.m. PST

Thank you for those posts, von W – they put quite a lot more flesh on the bones of our (or at least my) understanding of Bavarian skirmish tactics for this period.

One question – when the schutzen formed alone, did they form up in three ranks, or just two (a little confused by your comment that Deroy wanted to keep them in their files, whilst his junior commanders preferred the men working in threes)?

von Winterfeldt06 Mar 2018 1:18 p.m. PST

according to Deroy they kept three ranks and therfore 3 would form a Schützen team

Keeping them in their files – I did mean one file of three ranks – does that make sense in English, a Rotte in German is a file

Le Breton Inactive Member06 Mar 2018 1:51 p.m. PST

I do not know Austrians, but I do know first-class contributions when I see them. I am very impressed, and thankful to the Colleagues here who have shared such careful research into original sources.
Formidable, Gentlemen, truely formidable.

von Winterfeldt06 Mar 2018 2:06 p.m. PST

It's Bavarians ;-))

Le Breton Inactive Member06 Mar 2018 6:42 p.m. PST

See .… I told you I didn't know about them.
:-)

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member06 Mar 2018 11:34 p.m. PST

In fairness, both groups are German and Catholic.

von Winterfeldt07 Mar 2018 12:48 a.m. PST

Not so anymore in the Napoleonic time, at least for Bavaria – thanks to Boney Bavaria gobbled up some stunch portestant areas, such as Nürnberg, it was really bad that the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations was destroyed.
There was quite a bit desertion and mutiny when such soldiers were in-corprated into the Bavarian army.

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member07 Mar 2018 12:31 p.m. PST

Does this mean I can't have Jesuit priests in my Bavarian regiments?

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2018 6:49 a.m. PST

of course you can

marshalGreg08 Mar 2018 7:47 a.m. PST

so to understand it….
in 1809 the Bavarian line regiment was 4 co. at ~180 rank and file[3 musketeer and one designated Grenadier]?
They formed in 3 ranks, with shutzen [no longer in the rear ( ~4th rank like 1806 prussian)] and these troops would pull out ( Gap formed) from each position within the company ( and from possibly all 4 companies) to move forward to either skirmish in 3s or form the skirmish reserve, behind that skirmish screen to support it/be a reserve?

curious
MG

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member08 Mar 2018 9:43 a.m. PST

@marshalGreg,

This is my understanding of it; von Winterfeldt is much mroe knowledgeable on this and may correct me:-

in 1809 the Bavarian line regiment was 4 co. at ~180 rank and file[3 musketeer and one designated Grenadier]?

Not quite; each of the two battalions was organised like that, not the entire regiment; the two battalions would form up next to each other with the 1st Battalion's Grenadiers on the right flank, and 2nd Battalion's Grenadiers on the left flank. Note that the 180 included the schutzen, so it would be 150 (or slightly less) with them detached. In fact, if you deployed the regulation 1/5 of a company, you would have four lots of 36 (=144) and the four remaining companies would all be the same size (180-36=144). In size, if not actual structure, you effectively had a fifth company.

They formed in 3 ranks, with schutzen [no longer in the rear ( ~4th rank like 1806 prussian)]

Actually, I think it is possible that the line would have reverted to two ranks (as it was up to early 1809) once the schutzen had formed up separately; however, from what von Winterfeldt says, Deroy's division had only 30 schutzen per company (so half the 3rd rank when they were all stood together). It is possible that the remaining half of the third rank either stepped back to form a company reserve, or stayed where they were to assist with re-loading, or supplemented the schutzen if needed.

…and these troops would pull out ( Gap formed) from each position within the company ( and from possibly all 4 companies) to move forward to either skirmish in 3s or form the skirmish reserve, behind that skirmish screen to support it/be a reserve?

I suspect they would file through the gaps between the companies, or else each company would form a gap in the middle (much like the Foot Guards do during Trooping the Colour). Other than that, pretty much, yes as I understand it.

Now, let's see whether vonW agrees that I've been paying attention properly, and got it right!!!

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2018 1:49 p.m. PST

marshalGreg is on my stifle list – I have no clue what he is talking about.

@Supercilius Maximus

There are two options, according to the initial order in 1809 or Deroy.


„Durch allerhöchstes Rescript vom 9. März (1809) wurde die Zahl der Schützen jeder Compagnie auf den fünften Theil des Standes, also 40 bei 200 und 30 bei 180 Feuergewehren vermehrt, von denen höchstens der fünfte Theil mit Stutzen bewaffnet und nur diese mit Pulverhörnern ausgerüstet sein durften.
Bei geringer Stärke der Compagnie mindestens die Schützenzahl nie unter 1/4.
Ein Ober = und Unterlieutenant mußten als permanente Schützenoffiziere gewählt werden = bei jeder Compagnie wurde zwei weitere Corporale zu den Schützendienst gewählt. Alle Schützen trugen die grüne Huppe.
Bei dieser Gelegenheit wurde genehmigt, daß die Compagnien und Bataillons in 3 Glieder aufstellen, die Schützen das dritte Glied bilden, wo diese nicht ausreichen, aber Leute gewählt werden, welche vorzügliche Eigenschaften und Fertigkeit zum Tirailleur = Dienstes besitzen ; diese heißen Plänkler, und wurden zur Verstärkung der Schützenlinie verwendet ; sie trugen keine besondere Auszeichnung."
Berg, S. 253/254
(by the hightest order of the 9th of March (1809) the number of the Schützen of each company was increased to the fifth of its strength, therefore 40 at 200 and 30 at 180 guns, at the maximum only a fith had to be armed with rifles and only those were given power horns.
At a smaller strength the number of the Schützen should never be less than 1/4.
A 1st and 2nd lieutenant were chosen for permanent officers of the Schützen – and for each companies two additional corporals were chosen for duty for the Schützen. All Schützen did wear the green plume.
At this circumstance it was approved, that the companies and battalions were formed in 3 ranks, the Schützen did form the third rank, and in case their numbers were not sufficient they were reinforeced by soldiers who were suitable in character and adroitness for the skirmishing(here Tirailleur, shooting) duty, they were called Plänkler (skrimishers); could be used to reinforce the skirmishing line, they did not wear a special distinction.)

I hope that is clear – so 3 ranks – the designated Schützen in the third rank and the rest of the 3rd rank – skirmishers.

And right – in case you call out all Schützen and to reincforce them with the skirmishers you would end up in a two rank rest formation.

But who would command the 4 skirmishers sections? Did they cover only the width of their company as in the older days – or could they be employed more independently?

What happened when doing file firing and or battalion firing and skirmishers were somewhere else?

Deroy addressed all this admirably – and in my view – all Bavarian army would take this because it solves a lot of problems and gains a much more flexible use of the skirmishers.

A usual company would be – 180 rank and file – but
the 30 Schützen would stand two paces behind the formed company, that is 50 files in three ranks and a 4th Schützen rank of 30 in one line, two paces behind.

In case they are called forward for skirmishing – the platoon comanders of the formed infantry will order their first section to create a gap – most likley by wheeling, so we have 4 gaps and the 30 Schützen would pass through.

When in front of the company – out of all Schützen – a Schützen company of 3 ranks would be formed.

They would be 40 files in 3 ranks – etc. – see Deroy for that.

What is so nice about this order – the rest would be still in 3 ranks and could perform their firing procedures without any hick ups, there would be always a third rank which could swop muskets with the second.

See laso Deroy's instructions for file and rank and battalion fire – which takes account of this.

Now why did I think this was for all Bavarian army?

In case you did not change to Deroy's instructions, you would have a third rank – partially armed with rifles, how would they swop with the second rank their rifle against a musket when firing? A rifleman would not give his rifle just to a musketeer shooter.

Also in case the skirmishers are detached, the company would be only in two ranks, and the swopping of muskets couldn't be performed. (if it ever was done on campaign)
Anyway Deroy's instructions preserve the formation of three ranks – and free the Schützen from the company.

marshalGreg08 Mar 2018 3:14 p.m. PST

@ Supercillius Maximus
@ v Winterfelt I hope I can get off your stifle list. 😊
Sorry for any confusion I have caused.
From your very appreciated replies citing my errors and along with taking a different approach (from trying to see and write while in the TMP form which is difficult)…… take II:
* Battalion is 4 co(s) ( 3 musketeer and 1 Grenadier), ~180 strong, and possibly in 3 rank organization or a 4th (see below).
[- error was that I left out "per battalion?" in my OP reply]

Per your clarification you now provide…
*the shutzen is not in 3 ranks and their files are not within the company, as I first thought.
SO they are either in 3rd rank or as a 4th rank with the NCOs like the 1806 prussian line battalions.
Per your comments "A usual company would be – 180 rank and file – but
the 30 Schützen would stand two paces behind the formed company, that is 50 files in three ranks and a 4th Schützen rank of 30 in one line, two paces behind."
Indicates this a 4th rank.
So now I have a question as to which would it most likely be ( in a 3rd or as a 4th)?

Would Wurttemberg organization be near identical? If you have any knowledge to that…. could you reply in this OP: TMP link


thank you kindly,
MG

Supercilius Maximus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member09 Mar 2018 3:04 a.m. PST

But who would command the 4 skirmishers sections? Did they cover only the width of their company as in the older days – or could they be employed more independently?

I get the impression, from reading Gill's books (both the three-volume work on the 1809 campaign, and the one-volume treatise on all the Confederation troops) that entire detachments were formed from the schutzen, using those of an entire battalion, or even of a complete regiment, and these were occasionally given distinct missions – the first action at Landshut between Radetzsky and Deroy illustrates this quite well. Presumably, with the schutzen off elsewhere, units would have used the other 3rd rank men to carry out any local skirmishing duties?

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.