"Cold Wars Flee Market Friday Night? What could go wrong... " Topic

With regard to the change to the Friday Wally's Basement session, the Cold War's team did not make the change randomly or without thought. A significant amount of analysis occurred prior to the decision. Staff looked at sales of all Wally's Basement sessions over the last 4 years. During this review it was noted the Friday session sales numbers have dropped more than 20% since 2014. We then looked at how changing the session time would affect evening gaming using data from the last 4 years. In the 2 pm – 5 pm window, there are, on average, 35 games with 230 gamer seats with the vast majority scheduled to end prior to 9 pm. In the 9 pm – Midnight window, there is, on average, 1 game starting with 8 gamer seats with 3 games scheduled to end after the Wally's Basement session ends.

By moving the afternoon session, we were able to add several tournaments running during the day on Friday. We worked to create a layout to efficiently use game tables and scheduled events to minimize empty/unused tables.

The times for all of the Wally's Basement sessions have been publicly available on the Cold War's Hours & Prices page of the website since November 7, a month prior to the events deadline. No announcement was made at the time due to the limited number of games projected to be impacted. Cold Wars 2018 has 196 games scheduled on Friday with zero game starting 9 pm – Midnight and 6 games ending after the Wally's Basement session closes. The majority of gamers can get their evening game in AND visit the evening Wally's Basement session. In terms of impact to people who SELL in Wally's Basement, the Friday afternoon session equates to approximately 50 sellers out of roughly 1800-2000 attendees.

The decision, based on empirical data, to change the session time was not unreasonable in an effort to revitalize table sales and offer different options to attendees. We know, we aren't going to make 100% of the attendees happy 100% of the time. We are looking at the convention program as a whole and making adjustments that will benefit the most attendees with the least amount of negative impact to others.

Heather Blush
Cold Wars Convention Director

Well Heather, the facts work for me.

And as Double G said, lets see what shakes out. If its a dud, then it goes into the trash heap. If it's a success, hey great.

OK, Heather, decent argument. ("Sales" I take it, means table rentals?) But if the CDs have decided to kill the Friday PM flea market as HMGS-East policy, it's a pity they couldn't have said so before I reserved rooms for 2018. No way I'll ever arrive before lunch on Friday starting in 2019 now--and no way I'll get the money back from the Host for those 2018 Thursday nights, either.

As for blocking, the trick is not whether the game blocks the entire flea market, but whether it blocks the first hour or two. Signing on for a 7PM game means most of the flea marketeers will be packed before I arrive, and there are a LOT of 7PM games.

I'll take your word on the 7 November posting, but I very much doubt whether any substantial number of HMGS members check hours prior to each convention to see whether any of the regular features has been eliminated without any sort of announcement. Now I suppose we'll have to.

Yeah, life is about choices. I wonder how people playing games during the "old" flea market times managed? Games now starting at 7 p.m. is no different than games starting at 1p.m. And there are a lot of games starting at 1 p.m.

For the little it's worth, my hot take is these convention are like state/county fairs in that a lot of stuff is offered, simultaneously to a broad range of attendee interests.

Want to play in game X? Then you can't attend Hobby U painting session Y. Want to attend flea market session B? Then know it's right in the middle of game Z. Game A conflicts another game B that you'd love to play in.

We've all managed these "conflicts" in choices since we've attended our first convention. (It's called opportunity cost)

This is no different, it's just a change from what we were used too.

We will adapt.

Rick – You have to stop using that logic stuff. Messes up the chance for a perfectly good rant.

No we won't. We'll scheme and get even. It's the wargaming way.

You're quite right about the opportunity cost, rmcaras. Generally if there are two things I want to do at a convention, I can count on them going on at the same time and I don't complain about that except the usual grumbling among friends. This time, though, after years of HMGS wanting to get us to come earlier and stay later, is the first time I've seen the CD's trying to get me to come a day later. If they'd told me in March, that's what I'd have done.

You can tell us, Heather: is the Friday PM flea market for Historicon already dead?

I don't think Heather is responsible for Hcon. That would be Joby Miller. I am assuming each CD is free to configure their conventions individually and sharing data. It will be interesting to see what happens, but remember Historicon is 4 days vice CW & FI being "technically" 3 day conventions. So a different flea market schedule to start.

For me, the more relevant question is to Dan Murawski about how he sees configuring Fall In going forward after holding the late flea market this past November. I did not attend the late night FM, it started too too late for me.

He John! Hope you are well!

I really don't care when the flea market is run, as long as it doesn't negatively impact player participation in scheduled games. I am hard pressed to see how, if this moves pumps up the numbers in the flea market (both in participants and attendees) that doesn't negatively impact the games.

I find it interesting that the driving factor here (as stated) to move the time slot of the Friday flea market is the drop off in table sales. I wonder why anyone didn't think to drop the price of the tables instead of moving the entire program to a later time? Have the flea market table fees been raised back to $25 USD as well? If so, a cynical person would say this is all about the money. Good thing I'm not cynical. ;-)

Using the same logic that more people are on site Friday night, wouldn't it also make sense to extend the vendor hall hours to accommodate those people as well?

Spledid idea, if it's amenable to the vendors. Although I can hear some vendors wishing to spend their free time shopping or gaming.

If there are zero games, as in none, starting in the 9:00pm to midnight time slot when the flea market is going to run, I don't see how this will impact the games Historygamer.

Not to mention as I've already pointed out, the dillpickle room was 40% full Friday night at 7:00pm during Fall In, about the same or a bit less Saturday night during that time. I walked around the gaming areas both nights and there were plenty of empty tables in the break out rooms too.

As far as your idea of extending the dealer hall hours; no thanks, I'd like to eat dinner at a decent hour, then go check out the games, socialize and shop in the flea market, that's a bad idea.

Double G:

"If there are zero games, as in none, starting in the 9:00pm to midnight time slot when the flea market is going to run, I don't see how this will impact the games Historygamer."

It's not the 9pm starting times that are the issue. Plenty of games should have registered to start at 6, 7, and 8pm. Those games will be impacted. I did not see these games included in the analysis, did you? So do those games take a break? What if players wander away to go shop, as now they have incentive (oooooh, now dealers might be selling their cool stuff too)? We already have a problem with the pre-reg ticket system and no-show gamers. So does this help or hurt that problem? Do GMs now have incentive not to show up, but instead, go to the flea market – especially if they already put on a game and "earned" their free badge? Unintended consequences get you all the time.

"Not to mention as I've already pointed out, the dillpickle room was 40% full Friday night at 7:00pm during Fall In, about the same or a bit less Saturday night during that time. I walked around the gaming areas both nights and there were plenty of empty tables in the break out rooms too."

Yes, so again, how does this new and conflicting program help with that situation? Let me put it another way, what is more damaging to an HMGS convention's reputation – a lame flea market, or empty gaming tables?

"As far as your idea of extending the dealer hall hours; no thanks, I'd like to eat dinner at a decent hour, then go check out the games, socialize and shop in the flea market, that's a bad idea."

Only half joking on that, but my point is, if the reason for the shift of time was to garner more flea marketeers on both sides of the table since there are likely more attendees, then wouldn't that logic also hold with potentially increasing your sales by staying open later to accommodate those same late arrivers?

If the problem was a lack of people buying flea market tables on Friday afternoon, isn't the easier fix to lower the price to entice people to get one then? That is the least disruptive solution to the problem.

Now if management feels that the issue is to increase revenue and dealer participation – then the later start times makes sense, as does raising the prices of the flea market table to $25 USD (no answer on that question yet). But that answer has the biggest negative impact on gaming Friday evening as now it offers a shiny, distracting bobble for people to chase instead of gaming.

On a related note, some people have pointed out that at least some of the people now running the organization have never run a game at an HMGS con, or have only done so rarely. Point being – they don't think like GMs and have less of that focus on their minds – which is what the organization is supposed to be all about. I haven't done a study on that, but it is an interesting take if true.

It's not the 9pm starting times that are the issue. Plenty of games should have registered to start at 6, 7, and 8pm. Those games will be impacted. I did not see these games included in the analysis, did you?

Gonna have to agree with this. I've run games starting at 7 PM Friday in Distlefink and there have been times I've been the only game running in the entire back half of the room. With an aging population and the nights already thinning out on both days, I have a fear this will just cause more people to game till 6, take a long dinner, hit the flea market, and go.

Why didn't they try this on a Saturday night? Do they fear the mass exodus that occurs every Saturday starting at around 7 PM would make it a colossal failure, or did they just want to give dealers a monopoly for the first 6 buying hours of the convention?

Historygamer; you're a game master, so I'll defer to you. If you think someone is going to sign up for a game, play for an hour or two, then wander off to the flea market and never return, then that's your opinion.

What's to prevent someone who signs up for a 9:00am game to wander away to shop in the morning flea market or sign up for a noon game and walk away and go to the afternoon flea market then by that logic?

To me, it looks like gaming is heavy in the morning and afternoon hours, lighter in the evening hours. Maybe they are selling less tables as attendees would rather game than peddle merchandise in the flea market; isn't the main point of the conventions gaming?

Again; let HMGS run this and see what shakes out, assuming it's going to be a disaster/impact gaming before it happens is bad form.

Let it play out and see what happens.

First off, this is a done deal. I'm not advocating that they change it as that would only create confusion. But what I am saying is that one just can't look at this later flea market in isolation. It may be packed, it may be a great success. But what about the main activity going on at the same time – the games? How did they do? Better? Worse? The same? The conventions are supposed to be about gaming. The conventions ran for years without flea markets and had great success.

As to your question as to why this can't happen during early time frames – it certainly can. But here was only one of two blocks of time solely devoted to gaming (the other being Saturday night).

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, I just wish HMGS would put as much thought and effort into their main product – games – as they do all these other ancillary activities.

Either way I wish the convention success. I'll be there supporting it with my game as will some of my friends.

In my opinion, people come to HMGS cons for four main reasons:

1) Organized Events (tournaments, independent events, seminars, painting events, etc)

2) The Dealer Hall

3) the Flea Market

4) Socializing with Friends

Each attendee prioritizes them differently.

In my case, my first priority is flea market buying and selling, then hanging out with friends and playing pickup games, then the dealer hall buying, then organized events. The flea market is the reason I first came to the convention 20 years ago, and one of the most exciting parts of the con to me.

Canceling a popular (50 tables/sellers) flea market time decreases the value of the con to me. It also makes me much less likely to come on Thursday night. I may as well arrive at dinnertime on Friday.

Also, I am lucky – I'm running two events on Saturday night, and I deliberately scheduled them late enough that they didn't interfere with my flea market plans. If I had scheduled them on Friday night, my convention enjoyment would be significantly degraded.

Lastly, at $25 USD a table, the 50 folks selling at the Friday PM flea market contribute $1,250 USD to the convention coffers, and provide a service that people really enjoy. Their opinions should have been solicited before the move, as I would expect the dealers to be consulted before any changes were made to their dealer hall hours.

As to your question as to why this can't happen during early time frames – it certainly can. But here was only one of two blocks of time solely devoted to gaming (the other being Saturday night).

HG, I've read all your comments and still don't get your point. By my math there are still 2 blocks of time devoted solely to gaming, Saturday afternoon (as you say) and now Friday afternoon. Also Thursday evening for the early birds like me.

If Friday evening games are less packed than those on Friday afternoon, isn't a Friday evening Flea Market even less disruptive to the gamers?

I'm sorry you didn't follow what I have previously posted. Not going to beat this dead horse anymore. It's a done deal. At best, the flea markets are a nice to have at the conventions. I doubt, by themselves, if they attract significant numbers of people on their own.

I'm more concerned about the lack of any apparent thoughts and efforts in the gaming areas. With 400 registered games, how does that affect the room layouts, which have been stuffed full of tables with little space between them? It also begs the question, who is going to play in all those games?

What about the high rate of no-show games, leaving lots of empty tables jammed up against each other? Often large parts of the main gaming room are empty, while other parts have games up against each other.

Why are more and more games being jammed into the hotel lobby, which has lousy lighting? This makes no sense with empty gaming space in the main gaming area.

What efforts have gone into attracting better looking games to the cons? I'm not taking ones and twos, I'm talking dozens.

Wouldn't efforts in this area produce more fruit than moving the time of a flea market?

historygamer, I can only speak for myself, but I have certainly rejected attending certain conventions because of when the flea markets were scheduled--and that was before I started selling in them.

As for "better-looking games"--which really ought to be another thread--I'm sure they look nice in the subsequent photos, but I don't sign on for a game because I think it might look good. I usually look for smallish (and short) horse & musket without computers. This time, that produced two games, one of which will conflict with the Midnight Madness.

I think the logic behind the lobby games is that they attract people. But I wonder about it. As a general rule, by the time someone has arrived at the Host Resort on a convention weekend, he's already been attracted.

"historygamer, I can only speak for myself, but I have certainly rejected attending certain conventions because of when the flea markets were scheduled--and that was before I started selling in them."

Can't say I ever chose to attend or not attend an HMGS convention based on a flea market. Nice to have, hit or miss if you find anything. I often sell but sales can be sketchy too.

"As for "better-looking games"--which really ought to be another thread--I'm sure they look nice in the subsequent photos, but I don't sign on for a game because I think it might look good."

Not the point. The point would be that HMGS used to have lots of stunning games. Lots. Usually found at the Hcon at the Host. It was a reason to go, just to see those games for inspiration. I'm pretty sure since that time HMGS has instituted a rule about including pictures of high level games in any of their brochures or other advertising. I'm joking, of course, but look at the recent electronic brochure for CWs. Did you find that inspiring at all to attend? A picture is worth a thousand words.

I also used to enjoy seeing lots of units in the painting competition. That program was sunk a long time ago. Maybe I am the only one to notice, or care, that those two things seem like a distant memory, but were draws for some of us.

"I think the logic behind the lobby games is that they attract people."

I believe games in the lobby came out of HMHS moving games there when Hcon was packed and trying to use every inch of space available. They used to host some of the show case games outside the main room (Duke) and perhaps also used this location. I'll defer to Duncan. Still, it is a lousy area for gaming as the light is miserable and when I put on a game there it was hot and humid.

My point on better quality games – I believe (and could be wrong) that they were a draw back in the day. I also believe there are less of them now at the cons. You tell me if that makes a difference. And yes, it would help to feature some photos in the ads, brochures, etc. Of course there is no public website anymore and I haven't seen a concerted effort to post pictures of outstanding games on HMGS's two FB pages.

Question – was anyone inspired by the recent electronic brochure for CWs?

Last year about two hours into an evening game a player announced that he had to go, another player decide that this was also a good time to leave and did so also. These departures killed a beautiful game which the GM had put a lot of effort into. So I kind of afraid what this means for any Friday night game. I guess my question would be did the income and expense of dropping the Flea Market and merit the adding the tournament? And this does not include the lost Friday day trippers who cannot or don't want to come on Saturday.

All
I'm glad I started this topic.
I now have a table for the Friday night Flee Market session.

As was noted by George and others, I'll give it a shot and see how it goes.

I am always a fan of "more options are better" at shows,
so I hope at Fall In that it has the Friday afternoon AND the 9PM night flee market.

Best regards to all posters
-Mike

I hope you're right, Mike! Worked well at Fall In!

Historygamer, HMGS Great Lakes used to have a policy--may still, for all I know--of not running flea markets until evenings after all gaming was completed. So we were cordially invited to rent a room in a smallish community and hope there was a suitable game because there was no possible way to attend as a day-tripper and hit the flea market. I declined the invitation. I still would.

As for "better quality games" I like a beautiful table too, but for me it doesn't trump period and level, and it certainly doesn't rank above easily-understood rules, significant decisions by the players and attainable objectives. Length is important. Am I really willing to trust this guy with five or six hours of my convention? And timing is important. The guy wants to run his 7PM game five hours. Am I going to be awake for the last turn? If it's a Saturday game, am I going to wake up in time to drive home the next day?

Yeah, yeah. I should host more of what I like to play. I can't fit both flea market stuff and game stuff in the hatchback for the same convention. Give me one more year to reduce my wargaming stuff from intolerable to just excessive, and I'll try again. But that still won't give me a game to play.

In fairness, I don't know how much the CDs do to get a variety of games--and I'm not sure how much they can and should do. But I'd rather have a good game than a beautiful table.

dapeters, good point. And I won't claim never to have been guilty myself. Best I can say in my own defense is that the games I've bailed from at conventions, however beautiful, were not good games. I've never done it to go somewhere, but I have done it to escape.
And while I question her reasoning about "no harm if it doesn't block the entire window" Heather is perfectly right that any flea market time is going to conflict with some games--possibly more at 2-5 than at 9-12. My gripe consists of losing the 2-5, and what I felt to be inadequate warning at a convention site where we have to book rooms a year out.

The notice is done--but we really do need warning now for future conventions. As for efficient use of Friday PM table space, I'd have said the crowds standing in line for the 2-5 Flea Market session trumped two more tournaments, but I don't play tournaments. If overall attendance is up, I'll have to eat crow.

Watch this space.

I did the Fridaynight at FI and did very well. There was still plenty of empty gaming tanks for people to play, both there and in other areas.

Moe, hardly anyone is griping about adding Friday night. We're whining about losing Friday afternoon. Fall In had both.

"But I'd rather have a good game than a beautiful table."

So why can't it be both? Award winning games are also judged on whether the players are enjoying themselves.

The value of good looking games is also using them for advertising – something HMGS does a miserable job of doing.

My own personal take is that most games shouldn't go beyond four hours as that is my experience as both a player and GM where people hit a wall and lose interest.

I'm with you, historygamer. Both is better. But all you mentioned was good looking, as though that were your primary focus. As with movies where all the reviews talk about is the great special effects, I've gotten cautious. I don't assume people are working on some aspect they don't mention.

It's depressing how often I'm right.

"Moe, hardly anyone is griping about adding Friday night. We're whining about losing Friday afternoon. Fall In had both."

Never mind.

Both is good, late night only is bad..

People leave my games all the time due to both vendor or flea market openings. There is no way to legislate selfishness. I really do not care what time the flea markets are, just had to point out this can happen at any hour.

Damn, that's just _rude_ of them, rotundo. Gamers like that should devolve into next day's pulled pork special.

I was there for the last late night flea market experiment and it was ok. Not awful but also not great. It was much less attended than the other sessions and I saw very few if any dealers taking advantage of it. I recall lots and lots of discussion about changing to a late night flea market supposedly so "dealers could take part" yet I think the undercurrent was and always has been it was seen as a way to stop people from flocking to the flea market during the dealer hall hours. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Having a late night sessions is fine. Why the need to axe the afternoon session on Friday is beyond me. Like many others have stated I now have almost zero reason to arrive at the show before dinner which means I won't be booking a room etc etc. It also means Friday night games, especially open gaming, will be totally disrupted. I won't sign up for any Friday night games now, which are often the most fun and interesting games at the show.

JPipes…totally agree

jpipes, i also agree

So I am curious – when flea markets are moved to the evening – how is success of failure judged? What is the criteria? Tables sold? Number of people (guesstimate) shopping in the aisle ways?

For instance, what was the final verdict on the one run at FI and how was that determined?

Not looking to debate, just curious what qualifies as success or failure?

This just in, HMGS request that all attendees stop buying items on ebay for the next month.

(just kidding)

I mostly go to the HMGS conventions for two things, the flea market and open gaming with my buddies on Friday night. Now that the two are combined into one space (and time) I've lost half my reason for attending. I think I'll be giving Cold Wars a pass this year, which saddens me a little, but a seven hour round trip no longer makes sense to me.

I'm hoping they don't go the same way with Fall-in. I'd like to be able to make one of the HMGS cons (and I'm doing Origins rather than Historicon since the move to NJ, it's closer).

They didn't move Historicon to New Jersey for this year. It is at the Lancaster Host.

I know, but I made my plans when they made the switch. From western Virginia to NJ was a nonstarter.

I can only imagine what would happen if you lot really had something to fight about. I'm guessing that there would be a civil war and 600,000 would die.

Sadly, ill health will prevent me attending Cold Wars (for the second year in a row). If I could make it, I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over the scheduling of the flea market.

I hope that you all have a good time. It is a great event. Enjoy it.

I'll be there either way, but in talking to a friend who almost always goes to CW for Friday through Sat afternoon, once he heard the Friday flea market was moved he said would not likely go at all now. Kind of surprised me, but hey, people are free to do what they want.

Agreed; if people would rather stay home instead of hang out with their friends, socialize with people who share the same hobby, roll some dice, do some shopping and have a good time, that's their business.

This guy goes more to shop than game. His priority is the flea market, then the dealer area. Just FYI.

Maybe HMGS should offer one of the shows without any dealers and just an expanded flea market. Now that would be something different. I've often heard some of the dealers whisper that they'd like a break from attending three HMGS cons.

If he gets there on Friday and leaves Saturday and he goes mainly to shop, he can still do the dealer hall on Friday afternoon, the Friday night flea market and then the two flea market sessions on Saturday.

Him not going because they moved the day session to night makes zero sense.

Prior to getting into the toy soldier business, I would also go to the three convention mainly to shop. I'd buy prepainted stuff from Tom Panetta and Battlefield Terrain Concepts, unpainted stuff from Bob Bowling, Brookhurst, The London War Room, Wargames/Baxter Key and Combined Arms and books from London Pride and On Military Matters, I'd also shop in the flea market.

Of all those dealers, only BTC and OMM still attend and I still support them.

Back then, my main interest was 20mm WWII and there was plenty to choose from in the dealer hall and the flea market.

Now I buy from Doug and Dennis, I used to drop 2K at each convention, now it's down to a few hundred dollars, that's it.

As a dealer, it always drove me nuts to have a customer come by with some nicely painted 20mm figures that he bought for a song in the flea market, one time Rusty Miller and Mark saw some nice 20mm figures in the flea market, they called me on my phone, I closed my booth and went over there and bought them, spend about 500.00, but they were beautiful and priced for short money.

It shouldn't come to that, so I look forward to the Friday night session at CW, will be there with my list and pockets full of cash………………

"Maybe HMGS should offer one of the shows without any dealers and just an expanded flea market."

Nope, not taking the cheese on that one.

Nice try though.

I don't get it either, but we have both seen other people post the same thoughts here.

Oh, go on, take the cheese. :-)

It is an interesting idea though – if done right.

Ok, cheese taken; the only thing I'd like to see is what does it cost HMGS to rent the tennis barn/dealer hall vs what revenue does it bring in on the cost of dealer booths/tables.

My guess is they make more off of the booths/tables vs the cost of renting the building.

If so, whatever profit they make goes towards the overall cost of renting out the Host, so if that money is gone, how do you make up for it?

Again, my guess is whatever it costs you to come and game and shop in the flea market is going to go up.

As in a lot.

Using myself as an example; if the person who first told me about the three HMGS shows explained that there is no dealer hall, just a bunch of games being run and a flea market, that's a total non starter for me, as in thanks but no thanks, I'll take a zero.

If you think the idea has merit, then float it at the Friday night meeting and see where it goes.

If someone connected to HMGS thinks it's a great idea, then go for it; my only comment is do it for Cold Wars so I eliminate the possibility of driving down to the convention or back from it in a blizzard like I've done two of the last three years, that trip down two years ago gave me serious thoughts of bagging that show for good as it's not worth the risk, the weather in March in the Northeast is too much of a wildcard.

I thought I would post now that things have settled down.
Each CD can set their own show agendas/schedules.

Any changes from the norm are only done so to try to make things better. And those changes are honestly based upon real world data and facts now that we have a system that can actually log tables sold, tickets taken for games, etc…

This data is much more readily available to be viewed and therefore analyzed.

I do not know what Historicon is going to do yet.

Concerning Fall In! 2018. I am approaching it a little bit differently. I will only be able to better decide what I will do when the data comes in from CW and leading indicators for Hcon are available.

As always, my (and I am sure) the other CD's only intent is to try to provide the "optimal" show experience… but like all other shows…. attendees will have some tough choices to make…. when to shop, when to play and when to sell (flea market)…. There is no magical formula or recipe to get it 100% right.

We will work on it though! Please be mindful, I will fall down and sometimes make bad choices myself. I apologize in advance and know with sincerity, I strive to make the shows better, not in my own image, but what I see the majority is leaning towards.

After a long day in the dealer hall, when six o'clock rolls around it's time for dinner.

By the time I get back to my hotel, I'm usually very tired and in no mood to go back to the con.

And if I have to get back into the truck and drive back to the con at night, that's another negative. It would have been so much easier to get someone to watch the booth on Friday afternoon and just walk over to the flea market.

But like Double G says, try it anyway and see how it works out.

Can't disagree with what you said Dan. How did you judge the evening flea market at FI?