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"Cold Wars Flee Market Friday Night? What could go wrong... " Topic


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masm6110 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 1:53 p.m. PST

Wally's Basement Table: Friday PM 2018 – NEW – 9 PM to MIDNIGHT


really?
Why on earth is this happening?
Is it some sort of bad experiment?

Sorry if I have missed a previous discussion on this as I have been out of the country for a few months. (well shortly after last Fall In)

-Mike

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 1:57 p.m. PST

Why do you see a problem?

Wackmole9 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 1:58 p.m. PST

Hi

Every Seller I talked to said it went well at HC.

Bill D

masm6110 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 2:32 p.m. PST

>Why do you see a problem?
The open gaming area, that the flee market area becomes after hours, now will be lost.

It also kills my ability to sell for a few hours on Friday and then spend it in the dealer area in the late after noon.


>Every Seller I talked to said it went well at HC.
what is HC?

-Mike

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 3:07 p.m. PST

HC= Historicon

historygamer17 Jan 2018 3:29 p.m. PST

So by now doing this at all three cons, how exactly is this special?

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian17 Jan 2018 3:45 p.m. PST

Plenty of other space on Friday night in my experience

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 4:55 p.m. PST

It's not the "Midnight Madness" as such which is the problem for me, but the loss of the Friday PM flea market, which is an innovation. At Fall In, we had both.

Friday PM is my usual flea market spot. Switching to the nighttime slot would have cost me a game. It also means I'd have to stay up until--probably 1:00 AM by the time I had everything back in the car and got back to my room. And I'd have to be sharp enough to haggle at midnight. (Attending the Midnight Madness as a customer is a lot less demanding than having a table.) I wound up with a table for the 10:00 AM Saturday.

So now I have zero incentive to arrive before about lunchtime on Friday. Meaning if this becomes the norm, I no longer reserve a Thursday room at the convention site, but somewhere cheaper--possibly Breezewood. Bad for the convention site. It also means that instead of folding my table on Friday, counting my take and heading off to the Dealers Hall, I won't know how much money I have to spend in the Dealers Hall until 1:30 or 2:00 PM Saturday, and they'll close at 6:00 PM. At this stage in my wargaming, I won't be overly bothered by coming home with money in my pocket, but it does tend to irritate the dealers.

I hope they are irritated. I assume this is another dealer idea. They keep thinking that if they could just kill the flea markets, they'd get all the money spent there. What would actually happen is that attendance would drop, and they'd make less than they do now. If I can find out which dealer thought up this one, I'll do my best to see HIS revenue drops starting now.

VCarter Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 5:27 p.m. PST

I find that what I want is more important then who is selling it. The flea market for old OOP stuff and the dealer's hall for new.

The flea market is a major draw for me and money spent there does not effect my dealer hall spending.

All that said, I can only get away for one day and that is Saturday.

WarWizard18 Jan 2018 6:25 a.m. PST

When I saw no Flea Market during the day Friday I decided not to do day trip on Friday. Same as piepenbrink, I was going to get a table Friday and use income to spend Saturday. Now I will just come Saturday and have less to spend (not getting a table Saturday – too many games I want to attend). Eliminating normal Friday Flea Market is a bad idea in my opinion.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 9:09 a.m. PST

Now with feedback coming in, we find that perhaps the good old-fashioned way of doing things has a following with a reason for liking it The Way It Was.
ISTR that one of the main complaints about Wally's was how it interfered with the vendors and could something be done. Welp, they seem to have cleared Friday off as Vendor Day, with all money spent to go into those pockets, at least during the vendors' hours. Nothing against the vendors, mind you. Please one faction and it will bollix up somebody else's plans. Be careful what you wish for.

(Personally, whatever money I had for the vendors always got to the vendors, and whatever treasures Wally's had for me got its share of my wages. People seem to make time to get to one or the other place as their desires and opportunities provided. I was cool with the status quo.)

dapeters18 Jan 2018 12:24 p.m. PST

I agree with robert piepenbrink, yes if you want and evening session fine pretty stupid to cut the PM in fact there should be an am as well on Friday. This will probably mean fewer day trippers.

corzin18 Jan 2018 1:22 p.m. PST

was there some big push to end Friday afternoon session? seems like an odd move to me-Larry

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 2:18 p.m. PST

No discussion I heard, corzin, which is why I have this figured for some dealer's brainchild.

There are good people and good businessmen in the dealers hall, but as a body, I wish they were as good at marking merchandise, responding promptly to customers and accepting payment as they are at finding new hoops for the flea marketeers to jump through.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 4:01 p.m. PST

"Which is why I have this figured for some dealer's brainchild"………….

Really now? Hate to break it to you, but HMGS calls the shots (as they should), not the dealers, the tail does not wag the dog.

Been attending all three HMGS conventions in the PA/VA area for close to 20 years, HMGS has been very good to me and thanks to them putting on three great shows year after year, a large number of attendees have put a nice chunk of change into my pockets.


Please let's not make this a dealers/attendees, Crips/Bloods, Hatfields/McCoys feud.

If the night time session tanks, don't worry, we'll go back to doing things like the way they used to be soon enough.

If you don't agree with a night time flea market, then don't go, more stuff for the rest of us………..;)…..

Grimmnar18 Jan 2018 5:57 p.m. PST

Peeps been asking for a Midnight Madness Flea Market
Get the chance at Fall In and i hear it was a big hit.
Next con instead of trying the model again HMGS removes the Friday day session and brings the successful Midnight Madness to three hours earlier to a 9PM session.
You have to do research to see if something is actually a success. Failing to do this. This is what is called a bad business model.
Taking the Friday FM session from a con that has had them since the beginning all together is another bad business model.
There was no need to do this. Should have tried the Midnight Madness for each of the cons to see what a small amount of research will show. Now HMGS wont. Another bad business model.
I can say that i have been a con attendee since back when it was in Penn Harris. I have grown up on the con since i was a mid teenager. Now an adult with a few decades under my belt. I would like to say i have been paying attention to the cons, the blustering and crying and the like on forums all these years as well.
I for one would for one left the Friday FM table, Friday Midnight, Sat Both sessions and the usual Sunday funness.
Lets see which shoe drops in two months.

Grimm

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 6:44 p.m. PST

You know, Double G, I've been voting in HMGS elections for about 25 years. I've never, ever seen anyone run for office saying "we should restrict flea market tables and make all the flea marketeers jump through more hoops in future years!" But somehow this keeps happening.

If the dealers aren't pushing to kill the Friday PM flea market, it's a little worrying. You'd like to think somebody was getting something out of the general mess and inconvenience.

Long Valley Gamer Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 6:55 p.m. PST

Another bad idea..

rmcaras Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2018 8:34 p.m. PST

Another bad idea

time will tell.

historygamer19 Jan 2018 5:43 a.m. PST

So what is the intent of moving the Friday flea market, as on the surface, it seems to be a sop to the dealers?

I'd also point out that this time change could have an impact on game participation rates too.

While I think trying some new things is a good idea, I am not sure this qualifies as such, nor will have a beneficial impact on game participation.

Long Valley Gamer Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 6:14 a.m. PST

Moving the flea market to an inconvenient time makes no sense.

masm6110 Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 8:07 a.m. PST

For me it really boils down to why was it one time slot or the other. Could we not try a Friday afternoon AND a night time slot? Why ruin the Friday afternoon fun.

I'm not like some here who are going to bail on Friday but I might consider arriving on Friday as opposed to Thursday now.

-Mike

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 11:04 a.m. PST

"For me it really boils down to why was it one time slot or the other. Could we not try a Friday afternoon AND a night time slot? Why ruin the Friday afternoon fun. "

At first that's what I thought they had done, but it turns out only the Friday pm session is in session.
Doing my best second-guessing of the event organizers, I would think this would be the best way of seeing how well (or not) it worked.
We shall see, in any case.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 12:21 p.m. PST

"Moving the flea market to an inconvenient time makes no sense"………

According to who, you? What about the other attendees? Several of my customers who work for a living and won't get to Lancaster until about 8:00PM or later think it's a great idea as now they get to go to the night time session.

A couple of dealer friends of mine are getting tables in the session to blow out some stock, plus myself and other dealers will get to shop in the flea market for once.

How about instead of dumping all over the idea we try it first, sound good?

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 12:47 p.m. PST

"I'd also point out that this time change could have an impact on game participation too"…………..

How so? When you and I and your buddies were sitting in the Distlefink on Friday night at Fall In talking, the room was 60% empty.

On a Friday night.

To me, it looks like there are a lot more games being run during the morning and afternoon hours than at night; now people can game during the day and shop at night.

I really don't see what the issue is; there will still be A Friday session, it's just going to start later.

As myself and Capncarp said, we shall see how things shake out.

Again, if it's a monumental disaster, that will be that.

No harm, no foul.

thor52119 Jan 2018 2:52 p.m. PST

Well I for one was bumped by the change. I have in the past done a flea market table on Friday and done Tournaments on Saturday. So no flea market table for me and I'll still have a good time
SKOAL

Ploogak19 Jan 2018 2:55 p.m. PST

I'd just like to jump in to say this is not something the dealers cooked up. The flea market, like everything else, was discussed among the Convention Directors. Personally, I have a couple friends in the exhibit hall and I have friends that participate in the flea market so I don't have a particular loyalty to either group. HMGS has board members on both sides of this issue but we've not been pressured by them to take one side or the other. We (CDs) do feel we have an obligation to examine all aspects of the show and, at times, make changes in an attempt to improve them.

We're aware that leaving things as they are will not be popular with some people just as we're aware that changing things will not be popular with some people. As part of our decision making process we must consider the whole convention and how each part interacts with the whole and that will often put us at odds with people who have a weighted interest in a single aspect of the show.

I'm not taking sides on this issue, my reason for posting is to let everyone know that this decision rests solely with the CDs and isn't being pushed by on us by the dealers. Please don't try to incite people against them because you don't like a decision we've made.

Please, though, continue to discuss. Reasoned opinions will continue to be considered in our decision making process.

Thanks,
Joby

Long Valley Gamer Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 3:20 p.m. PST

Double G I don't want to get into a p…. contest with you. The fleamarket has been functioning well for many years with no major cry for this type of change. This came out of left field at the last con and was something that was added. Nothing was taken away. Now something has been taken away…the Fri afternoon FM.
And yes this is according to me just like your opinion is according to you. Glad a handful of your customers like the idea but the majority have never been asked their opinion on it before it was implemented.
My gut feeling is they would vote to keep it the way it was but the true test would be an actual vote…

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Jan 2018 3:41 p.m. PST

Understood and I don't want to get into one with you either. I've owned my business since 1997 and if I was running it in 2018 like I was in 1997, chances are pretty good I'd be out of business.

As is the case with most humans, I don't like change, I want things to be the same forever, but that's not practical or realistic.

Again, let's see what shakes out and take it from there, it will be interesting either way.

TSD10119 Jan 2018 9:49 p.m. PST

Whew! 2 o'clock Friday is finally a free time to run and play games instead of everyone worrying about the Flea Market. I sure as heck won't be spending that time in the Dealer Hall.

snurl119 Jan 2018 11:35 p.m. PST

I don't understand why friday afternoon was dropped.
The night market at Fall-In was well attended, a good idea. A nice addition. But why drop Friday afternoon?

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 5:59 a.m. PST

According to who, you? What about the other attendees? Several of my customers who work for a living and won't get to Lancaster until about 8:00PM or later think it's a great idea as now they get to go to the night time session.

Using that logic wouldn't it have been better to keep the afternoon session and drop the morning session instead?

Also, for those who take Friday off, the morning may be spent in transit.

And I would hazard to guess that most customers work for a living. It's just that some may have inflexible schedules and bosses. wink

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 6:04 a.m. PST

And it is natural that members would look to the vendors as the source for this move. Thanks, Joby for setting that straight. Anyone who has been following these threads know that some vendors equate a loss of bodies in the Vendor Hall during flea market hours, with taking money out of their pockets.

historygamer20 Jan 2018 6:07 a.m. PST

Double G you are correct about the 60 percent rate for the distlefink. And how does a Friday night flea market help that?

So what is the criteria for judging success or failure? Or like some past Soviet program will it be declared a success regardless? Lol

Look, try it, that's fine. But I am not sure how this advances the goal of promoting historical miniature gaming, especially given the empty gaming tables.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 6:12 a.m. PST

All different issues don't have to be linked, HG. Fixing or altering one thing doesn't necessarily have to impact the other. For example, I really love the changes the Host did in the new Vendor Hall. It's a move forward. But, that has no impact on empty tables either.

historygamer20 Jan 2018 6:35 a.m. PST

So where is the equal amount of thought, time, and effort to address all those empty tables and unfilled game slots?

I wasn't aware there were any problems with the flea markets. Perhaps you can fill us all in on that.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 6:48 a.m. PST

"Using that logic, wouldn't it have been better to drop the morning session and keep the afternoon session instead?"

There is no Friday morning session at Cold Wars.

"And how does a Friday night flea market help that?"

Well it certainly doesn't hurt it. You mentioned the change in flea market hours and the impact on gaming, so I'm not sure where you were going with that……………..

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 8:01 a.m. PST

"Whew! 2 o'clock Friday is finally a free time to run and play games instead of everyone worrying about the flea market. I sure as heck won't be spending that time in the dealer hall."

Great, glad it all worked out for you.

TRUgamer20 Jan 2018 8:17 a.m. PST

Let's not get all worked up over mixing up the schedule to try something new. Suffice it to say the new schedule will be a benefit to some and inconvenient to others. Sameness is not always the only answer.
We need to consider many new ideas if we hope prosper (dare I say grow?) as an organization.

TRU

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 8:34 a.m. PST

There is no Friday morning session at Cold Wars.

Thanks for the correction, George. grin

So where is the equal amount of thought, time, and effort to address all those empty tables and unfilled game slots?

I can't disagree with that. But that issue and the flea markets are apples and oranges. Perhaps starting your own thread on this very topic would be a better idea than bringing it up on a flea market discussion?

historygamer20 Jan 2018 8:57 a.m. PST

So now evening attendees will have to choose between gaming (already noted lots of empty tables and unfilled slots) and going to the flea market. So what is the purpose of this con?

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Jan 2018 9:13 a.m. PST

Wise words TRU………….

No problem Bowman; again, we'll see how this works out.

As far as the purpose of the con; I don't get the point. If we both agree there are lots of empty tables and unfilled slots at night, maybe the wargaming age demographic is shifting and gamers in their 50's and 60's don't want to game all day and night.

Maybe they will like the idea of shopping for an hour or so at night after coming back from dinner, I know I will.

sgibson20 Jan 2018 9:29 a.m. PST

I agree with Snurl. Why was the Friday afternoon session cut to make room for this evening session? The Friday afternoon flea market session is the second busiest FM session, after Saturday morning. I can't imagine it was a staffing issue, because at Fall In, the convention staff was able to cover both the Friday flea market sessions, AND the new nighttime session.

I, like many others, enjoy playing pick up games with my friends in the evenings in the space that is used during the day by the flea market. I think this is an unnecessary disruption, and a solution in search of a problem.

114th Pennsylvania21 Jan 2018 6:51 a.m. PST

Ok,

So here is another great example. As GMs we were asked to get games in by Dec 8th 2017. I scheduled our team to run 2 games on Friday evening. In January 2018 HMGS declares a Friday evening flea Market that starts at what time?

1) YOUR members meeting is Friday night and its important because you are suppose to nominate new Board members, How many will miss this to shop?

2) Is my group now within their right to cancel their games to attend the Flea Market that was announced after the Games GM deadline?

We have been running games at each show since 2008 faithfully (I hear a Journey song in there some where) But this change after the fact is not right.

So we will keep it a secret until Friday evening whether we run or not and all your grips can be directed at HMGS for making this last minute change.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2018 7:05 a.m. PST

(My best Steve Perry voice) I'm forever yours (HMGS), faithfully….

We have been running games at each show since 2008 faithfully (I hear a Journey song in there some where

TSD10121 Jan 2018 11:58 a.m. PST

So we will keep it a secret until Friday evening whether we run or not and all your grips can be directed at HMGS for making this last minute change.

Yes, this was incredibly poor form. Almost seems like it was deliberately announced well after it should have been when people were locked in for their games etc.

I'd love to know who decided on this change, because it should have been announced before game submission closed.

historygamer21 Jan 2018 7:32 p.m. PST

And this is my point. More distraction from what is supposed to be the focus of the convention.

This is grossly unfair to GMs who registered to put on games during this time period.

Ken Nielsen21 Jan 2018 9:50 p.m. PST

So, just curious how the following fits with the Wally's Basement rules: "A couple of dealer friends of mine are getting tables in the session to blow out some stock". That would seem to be at odds with the flea market being a non-commercial venture. Will the dealers blowing out stock be required to comply with the sales tax bit since they are businesses, or will we all now get that pleasure? Some variables here that might not quite have been fully thought out. On some level I get that there's a potential gray area in terms of a hobby shop owner's stock being their personal property (although pretty sure the IRS and state revenue services don't see it that way), but it's still a little weird to me. I'm going to give the Friday night session a try and see how it goes. On the bigger front, I use the flea market as a hobby money laundering operation (you know, turning unused stuff into money), with my "proceeds" largely going to the dealers. That will be a little interesting now since I'm unlikely to spend too much Friday before the flea market.

Double G Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Jan 2018 6:29 a.m. PST

As dealers we were told we could get tables for the midnight madness session at Fall In, I chose not to.

If I did, any sales would be reported as income, just like at all the shows I attend.

No gray area for me.

And I hate to break it to you, but you've already got dealers in the flea market, two of which are toy soldier dealers who attend numerous shows on the East Coast.

So there you go.

BTCTerrainman Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2018 6:41 a.m. PST

First off, I am not against the flea market and don't have any problem with the concept and operation of it.

But seriously this is really not something new. There are also some other folks that operate as vendors/dealers in the flea market anyway. Those that buy to resell products and those that manufacture items just for sale at the flea market are essentially no different than a vendor in the vendor room. (for the record I started in the flea market making and selling things, but after 3 shows moved into the vendor area – when space became available in that area).

Also, PA already requires flea market sellers to obtain a transient vendor license and collect and remit sales tax.

link

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