"Steve Jackson Games Launches Triplanetary Kickstarter" Topic

Sounds like another old designer of a starship combat game.

Wow. Was that an attack against me? Why in the world would you make this personal? We disagree on a point of about a Kickstarter of a nostalgia game, and that's all. I have not attacked you, merely disagreed with your position, about which could we not also say that *you* are never wrong? Or perhaps it is that your anticedent is so unclear as to refer to a spaceship combat game designer who has not been mentioned or isn't part of this discussion. So if I am wrong about the target of this attack, I apologize.

Nevertheless, if I have offended you in my responses, then I most heartily apologize, and retract anything that you might consider personal. I don't see such things in my posts, but perhaps I am merely not sensitive to what others might react to negatively. Simple disagreement and vigorous debate is apparently a cause for reproach in today's world, apparently.

As to your points, let's say I'm completely wrong on all my assertions, and you are factually correct in all of yours. Nevertheless, we still have a situation where a game company is doing nothing either immoral or unethical in anyway. They are simply offering a product for sale at a price and service point that they assume is favorable to them, yet which they also assume is favorable and fair to the customer. The customer is free to take their offer or reject their offer. There is really nothing going on here to condemn, nor anything worthy of personal attacks against either the company or Steve Jackson himself, or by extension, me for arguing in favor of the situation at hand. They have been described as "lazy," meaning that they don't wish to make an effort (and thus expend cost in labor, time and material) towards a particular level of action. They have been described as "isolationist" because this particularl level of action involves shipping outside of their country (which is not the same as shipping across a border in Europe. Land area wise, your partial-continent is puny. Ours is immense. Plus, you're across an ocean. You know. Big blue thing. Lots of water. Hasn't got macadam or railroads). Oh, they'll still happily ship outside the country. They'll just charge what it costs (actually, probably a little less). And lastly, the decision to not pursue this particular level of action has been called "discrimination" because it necessarily involves all customers who don't live in the US. Of course, they don't restrict any purchase by sex, sexual identity, sexual orientation, age (well, except for minors who can't participate in Kickstarters), race, religion, political affiliation, nation of origin, hat size, preferred shoes, or favorite sports team, or for that matter, anything else truly worthy of being labeled "discrimination." Well, except for the fact that one has to have $45 USD plus shipping to pay with. Does that count, too?

So, then, the accusations and labels are clearly absurd, leaving us not with whether or not SJG is offering good service on a Kickstarter, or offering good service in general, but rather that those complaining wish SJG to take actions which SJG has decided not to take, for reasons that SJG has expressed in general, if not in specific. But why should SJG be condemned for not taking these actions? Is it not their right to decide what they choose to do as a business? Yes, the customers are free not to purchase a product from SJG, too. That is their right as well. That's how economics work. But neither choice is nefarious, and complaining about it really serves no purpose at all.

And if I am wrong about everything else, I am not wrong about the above.

Wow. Was that an attack against me? Why in the world would you make this personal?

No dude, I don't have a clue what your age is nor did I associate you with GOBs until mentioned it afterwards in the other thread. It's a reference to another designer for a long-lived company whose conduct on his forums is well known. Apologies if it was too obscure and open to interpretation.

I don't take arguments personally either, it's just a discussion and I just debate the points. So zero need to apologise.

Nevertheless, we still have a situation where a game company is doing nothing either immoral or unethical in anyway

No one argued it was immoral or unethical, just bad customer service. Isolationist policies I believe was the original term used by the other dude. And the point about shipping cross ocean is pointless because Canada is excluded as well and is certainly not across an ocean.

Anyway it's fairly clear that you're unwilling to concede the point despite a large amount of counter evidence so the argument is fairly pointless to continue at this time.

Why customers go out of their way to defend companies that they don't work for, aren't getting paid by, and don't profit from is frankly beyond me. That amount of brand loyalty is simply dangerous because it enables companies to get away with things that they should simply not get away with.

But neither choice is nefarious, and complaining about it really serves no purpose at all.

Customer complaints are a part of capitalism. They are also proven to effect change in company policies. Your efforts to stifle and dismiss criticism have more in common with an authoritarian regime than a free capitalist society.

Apology offered, nevertheless. Glad to hear I was wrong.

No one argued it was immoral or unethical, just bad customer service.

Well, certainly Guthroth implied immoral and unethical, using the terms "isolationist" and "discrimination" as a single phrase, especially in today's political climate, when both words are hurled as points of attack, even when they don't apply. You haven't done that.

Re: Canada. I acknowledge the point about oceans does not apply. But I still don't think it's bad customer service. I think it's completely tied to the Kickstarter model and what they experienced in regards to the original Ogre KS. Clearly that experience placed what they saw as undue or unprofitable requirements on them, whatever they might have been, that made it a better business decision to restrict future KS orders to the US. And I still don't think it's bad customer service to offer the product overseas and simply charge the postage, KS or no KS. I get your point about a discount that US customers are able to take advantage of as a result when international customers cannot, but again, I don't see that as bad customer service, anymore than it is bad customer service when a store offers discounts to in-store customers and not mail-order customers. As I stated, I still think this comes down to "add this to the truck" shipping advantages versus single package advantages.

As for the rest, I'm certainly not trying to stifle anyone. Disagreement and debate don't stifle anything. I'm just bringing forth a contrary and to my mind viable point of view. And really, a customer complaint is a heck of a lot more valid if it is actually made to the company, and not just posted on an unconnected web forum! Might as well go outside and yell it at the neighbor's cat. You'll get the same result.

But we agree to disagree, and I hope we do so quite amicably.

I think I'll let the matter rest. See you around on TMP!

As for the rest, I'm certainly not trying to stifle anyone. Disagreement and debate don't stifle anything. I'm just bringing forth a contrary and to my mind viable point of view.

"ranting nonsense", "petty", "small minded", "sour grapes", "flatly ridiculous", "SJG is doing nothing wrong . . . Accusations to the contrary are absurd"

These are your comments. They are not disagreeing, they are disparaging, dismissive, and dictatorial.

And really, a customer complaint is a heck of a lot more valid if it is actually made to the company, and not just posted on an unconnected web forum! Might as well go outside and yell it at the neighbor's cat. You'll get the same result.

So that the company can delete or edit your post, lock your thread or ban you while fanboy after fanboy dogpiles you? Yeah, I don't agree with that. The best place to actually voice complaints is a public forum that the company does not control so that potential customers look the other way. O ideally, both, but certainly not only the company forums which some developers don't even read.

Offering opinion is dictatorial? You and I have different meanings for that word.
Yes, I used blunt expressions to express what I saw. So, for that matter, do you. Are you being "disparaging, dismissive and dicatorial" towards me in the same manner with those very terms? I don't think so, though they are all equally negative in tone, are they not? How about terms like "fanboy," "isolationist," "discrimination," "lazy," "can't be ar**ed," etc., which have all been used here to assert positions and in some cases belittle and dismiss responses. Just because someone disagrees with your take on what constitutes bad customer service doesn't make that person a "fanboy."

As for the company's forums, I certainly did not suggest that at all. I think customer complaints should be directed to the company itself. Contact them by e-mail, mail or phone (or all three), express your disagreement politely, ask for resolution, and then move on. After that, assuming the customer service is actually bad and not just a misinterpretation of a misunderstood situation, and no resolution is offered, sure, take your complaint up the wire to effective solution paths (as the BBB, Planet Feedback, etc.). But be prepared to hear that your interpretation may not be the same as someone else's.

And, as of yet, I still don't interpret this situation as being bad customer service.

(For the record, I like Ogre/GEV, Steve Jackson's personal best games, IMHO. I thought the original Illuminati was clever (but not the CCG), know that The Fantasy Trip and Melee are much praised (never played 'em), don't like GURPS, think Munchkin is funny but also somewhat 'meh,' to play, found Car Wars excessively complex for the subject matter, and haven't wound up being all that impressed with other efforts (alas, never got to play Junta). I'm pleased the company republished The Awful Green Things From Outer Space (a Tom Wham game; for him, I might be a fanboy). And that's really about it for me. Oh, they were very kind in donating Chupacraba, Trophy Buck, and Munchkin: Loot Letters, to our library Teen Department. Maybe that makes me a little favorably disposed? But still, a fanboy of SJG? No, not really. I've seem them do good things and weak things, and would say so. I just don't think this situation rises to anything egregious.)

Offering opinion is dictatorial?

No, dismissing opinion is dictatorial. It's one thing to give your two cents, it's another to say that the other guy's 2 cents don't matter or aren't valid.

How about terms like "fanboy," "isolationist," "discrimination," "lazy," "can't be ar**ed," etc., which have all been used here to assert positions and in some cases belittle and dismiss responses

Those terms aren't dismissing someone's opinion as invalid, they're characterizing behaviour.

And, as of yet, I still don't interpret this situation as being bad customer service.

That suggests that you're actually open to the possibility of being convinced that is it is bad customer service, but I frankly don't think that's the case. Your arguments have all been speculative, you've ignored or dismissed evidence, and you've made every attempt to demonize your opponents. There's nothing to suggest that you're debating in good faith.

I just don't think this situation rises to anything egregious.

Given your comments you certainly find the complaints against SJG egregious, which is probably why the other fellow characterized your behaviour as fanboyish.

i am reminded of the line from the movie Stripes:

"Lighten up Francis"

Bit of a tidbit related to this from SJG, in regards to international shipping of the Ogre Miniatures Set 1 KS, from their latest update on that project. (Excerpt, but the context doesn't change the content or meaning): "…we were shipping European packages to our friends at Pegasus games, to try to avoid those [European] backers having to pay high custom charges. Shipping from within Europe usually prevents that, and they [Pegasus Games] were willing to do that for us. "

So, here you have a situation where SJG actually went out of its way (as did Pegasus Games) to provide an additional service to international customers to save the customer money-- money that would not have been charged to SJG at any point, and which they did not have to take action to alleviate, as the legal burden for the custom charges falls on the customer, not SJG. Furthermore, Pegasus Games, an independent gaming store, was contacted by SJG to assist in providing this service, even though the customers in question were not purchasing anything from Pegasus Games. Although the update does not say so, it is likely that Pegasus Games received either a per-order fee from SJG or a block payment for their efforts.

So, who's giving bad customer service? Clearly not SJG.

But the above also demonstrates why the situation wasn't extended to the second Ogre Miniatures Set, or to Triplanetary: the number of international backers was too low to permit the above process again. Perhaps, in fact, it is Pegasus Games who turned down any offer to repeat the process, leaving SJG without the distribution source. Or it may have been that Pegasus is unable to provide the service for other reasons we do not know. Either way, something changed.

On a side note, I did some research on SJG.
Turns out they have provided information from their internal "Stakeholders Report" on the company website. The most recent info is from the 2016 Fiscal Year, and here are the relevant facts:
Total full time employees: 46, plus "a few" part-time employees.
Gross sales for 2016: $6,600,000. USD (Note these are sales, not profits.)
According to the report, these sales are not considered a "good year."

Other facts, easily gleaned: The median income for an individual in Austin, Texas, is currently about $33,000. USD It is to be assumed that SJG is relatively competitive on this front, with some employees earning more, but likely very few learning much less. Typical employment costs for a company in the US (benefits, support materials, space and equipment, and more) is 1.75% of the salary or wages paid. Given the above, it is reasonable to assume that SJG's cost simply to employ its staff is $2 USD-$3million, almost half its gross sales revenues. It's probably actually higher. On top of this are the assorted business and materials costs of the products, including shipping, advertising, warehousing, etc., which are not covered simply by employee effort.
Note also, that given the Triplanetary KS of $20,000 USD (give or take), that means that the KS only covers 0.01% of the employee cost for the year, giving the employees a grand total of 3.65 days at most to spend on the game and have the labor costs (and only the labor costs, not production materials, etc.) be covered by the KS.
Yipe!
See, here's the difference between SJG and Firelock, et. al. SJG has multiple products, but also multiple employees. It *must* take in some $3,000,000 USD per year to pay these employees. Do Firelock and the other KS start-ups have such a cost burden? I seriously doubt it. Triplanetary is only, and will only be, a drop in the bucket of that cost; in reality, it will barely pay for itself. How many sales can they actually expect? 5,000 copies? That would only be around a tenth or less of the company's employee costs in gross sales only! Triplanetary isn't a money maker, it's a nostalgia action by Steve Jackson. In a pure business, bottom-line sense, it makes no sense. Munchkin is his bread and butter, and the thing that keeps the food on his employees' tables.

Some people here and in other forums just don't get it. There are hobby businesses that flash and die, like Spartan Games. And there are game businesses that succeed and stick around, like SJG. And there are game business that should have stuck around, but didn't, like SPI, TSR, GDW, AH and other once "Big Names" in the wargaming world. They're all gone, or survive only as products bought by somebody else and nostalgia "good will" logos slapped on other companies' products. And there are a very few, like FFG. GW, and WotC that succeed wildly. And the difference among these? The ones who obey good business practices and pay attention to the dollars and cents. If they do that, then they can, from time to time, indulge in publishing games that really have no profitable market, but which they have a personal affinity for.
And that's what's happened here.

Perhaps, in fact, it is Pegasus Games who turned down any offer to repeat the process, leaving SJG without the distribution source. Or it may have been that Pegasus is unable to provide the service for other reasons we do not know. Either way, something changed..

Seriously dude, quit making things up.

Ogre Miniatures set 2 kickstarter launched before Set 1 was even shipped internationally. Which means that Pegasus games was fulfilling its role as an international distribution hub AFTER Steve Jackson games chose not to do international shipping on the subsequent KS.

They stopped international sales because they didn't feel the demand required its inclusion, nothing more.

And yeah, they went out of their way to try and help European backers the first time around. Good on them. But that doesn't change the fact that they subsequently didn't bother.

Some people here and in other forums just don't get it.

What you don't get is that customer good will for a company doesn't meant the company never fails. People excuse company mistakes or short-comings because they have good will towards them, but people who don't have that affinity for a company simply see the shortcoming for what it is, a shortcoming.

It is very, very apparent that you have a tremendous amount of good will for SJG. We don't. So we see things for what they are, not how you try to colour them.

The time of actual shipping is irrelevant, as the results of the first KS immediately indicated how many products would need to be shipped through Pegasus or any other companies SJG may have partnered with in other nations. So the cost vs. benefit of the situation is known without having performed the physical act of shipping, and would be used to determine how to handle future offers. I'm really surprised you didn't consider this. As it was, the second Ogre KS did not begin until after the products were in the act of shipping. I know, because I backed both, and recieved Set 1 long before Set 2 was offered. International shipping is clearly still taking place, but the product was in place as would have been any shipping arrangements before the Set 2 offered was announced. So at that point, SJG would have been quite aware of the costs and other issues of the international KS option, and adjusted accordingly. So your assumption that they "didn't want to bother with it" isn't supported by your point at all.

I see that you have lost "good will" in the company, but you continue to be in error about the actual situation and circumstances, and your refusal to acknowledge this is your error, not SJG's. But the fact that it is SJG is irrelevant to me. If the company were Hasbro, GW, WotC (Hasbro), Mongoose, Warlord, Wargames Factory, FFG, or anybody else my argument would remain the same. I'd say the same thing about Microsoft, and I hate their products and service. But in this situation, I don't think any company would be doing something wrong or worthy of reproach by international customers. The situation is that a company offered a KS internationally, and the international element turned out to be, bluntly, more trouble than it was worth, probably literally. So they made a business decision to restrict the KS to US backers, but offer a way for the handful of international customers to purchase the product at a perfectly reasonable shipping cost. Your gripe continues to be that you can't have a shipping discount, but the actual evidence suggests that discount doesn't exist in the first place. Any smart business covers its "discounts" in their charges, so that profit remains, with the plan that volume of sales promoted by the discount produces a higher overall level of profit than the volume of sales at the undiscounted rate. But if that volume doesn't occur, then it's not smart to offer that discount again. And it's really stupid to offer that discount again if the volume is so low that the discount takes away all the profit of the few sales that happen. It's quite clear that the international sales of the first Ogre Set KS did not produce a volume that would cover the cost of the shipping discount given to those customers. Hence the change. So, basically, the first time around, SJG lost money on individual sales to international backers, but honored their offer despite that. The second time around, and now the third (for a different product with even less international appeal), they changed the offer to prevent such loss. QED.

Why do I continue to discuss this and defend them? Because you have offered an accusation without proof, an accusation that is easily explained away in multiple ways, all reasonable and rational. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I don't think I am (and know I am not). Consider this question: Is it possible that you are wrong, and that your interpretation of events is just that-- an interpretation, and not a proven thing?

Because you have offered an accusation without proof, an accusation that is easily explained away in multiple ways, all reasonable and rational.

And yet time and again you ignore the most simple and obvious explanation of "they couldn't be bothered". Which is the only explanation that is actually supported.

Your "explanations", where you need to inject one or more baseless and unproven ideas into the equation is neither rational nor logical. It's pure fallacy.