"Why Islamic Terrorists Don’t Kidnap Russians " Topic

Wow!!

Amicalement
Armand

Russians do a lot of things right.

I have heard this before but slightly different.

In the version that I heard, a courier firm like UPS or DHL delivered a box to the house where the kidnappers were hiding. The box contained the head of one of the kidnappers who had gone out for bread a couple of hours earlier.

Ha! Priceless.

Dan

Heads nd adresses etc. of the family members given. With clear idea of their future.
In Nigeria sent the pirates but one "swimling" ashore with similar clear sognals.
But Rusdians have bern taken by Chechens and Daguestznis since, it was even part of the rezson for the " reshaping".
In old Rusdian tradition, when parents wanted to frighten their kids they did not say the wolf will come to take you tonight, but the ugly chechen.

Baba Yaga was Chechen? :)

Dan

Firstly, this story was made up as propaganda. Secondly, Russia is still and was then one of the most "pro-Syria" countries on the planet (so I guess these made up terrorists won in the end?) and thirdly, are we really supposed to admire kidnapping and castration? I dont know if everyone here believes in a soul, but I suppose most people can still be relied upon to have some decency and shame. And lastly, of course Russians get kidnapped, and no less frequently than anyone else in a warzone. In fact, Russians were kidnapped in September, if not more recently.

Let me guess, you get your news from anonymous Facebook posts and Twitter? Was this a chain email that was passed around? Did you see the one about the Cloud People from Nibiru that are slipping mind control agents into the president's breakfast bucket of KFC every morning so they can run the whole country? That one is a good one too…

Not anonymous. Already in the 90s from F intel.
Mind me we had a book out recently about French black ops, that drew a little scandal, Alpha team from DGSE action branch conducting assasinations etc.++
No doubt the Russians/ Soviets were and are even more ruthless/ to the point with certain categories of friendly humanists.
Happy are the innocents.

the Cloud people one is true a guy that works at KFC told me so

Made up or not, it's a good story. No one's admiring kidnappers, they're admiring the possibility that extremist kidnappers get what they deserve and that maybe a government has the moral courage to play them at their own game. In this era when a lot of people see their leaders as weak it's nice for some to look at things through rose tinted glasses.

A good story!?
'Playing them at their own game?'

Do that and the terrorist wins. The aim is to destabilise the rule of law – you just did it for them if you think torture and revenge murder is 'moral courage'.

In the story it wasn't the 'extremist kidnapper' who got what they 'deserved' – it was a family member who had done nothing except be related to someone.

Try and remember we are on the side of justice and democracy not revenge and totalitarianism.

(And if it were something other than a sick revenge fantasy – it didn't work very well did it?
Beslan 2004
Baghdad 2006
etc)

Thanks for the moralising, I don't need reminding who's side I'm on, after 8 tours of Iraq and Afghanistan I'm quite aware. If you'd actually read what I'd wrote instead of viewing it from on top of a high horse, you would have seen that I used words like "people" "some" and "they're", the average man in the street sees it as justice, my personal opinion is neither here nor there in this discussion, which is why this tale is enduring and popular.

It's also not too accurate. 4 Russians were kidnapped in Iraq a few years ago and were shown on video being killed. It wasn't the Russians who got payback on them either. One of the men was a fairly high level diplomat.

link

link

The US got one at the very least and the Iraqis got the others. IIRC, the terrorists demanded that the Russians withdraw from Chechnya. There is also the bloody incident in Moscow, of all places, where some 800+ Russians and foreigners were taken hostage too. The Russians used a chemical agent to knock out everyone. A lot of people died in that incident from the gas…

link

The Russians executed or killed everyone of the hostage takers. There were reports of the Russians summarily executing sleeping Chechens. Supposedly some were taken prisoner and haven't been heard from since. Say what you will, but the Russians can be pretty vicious too.

Achtung Minen +3

Aren't we supposed to be the ones who seek accuracy and proof for every little nuance of history? Isn't this the site that has lengthy threads castigating films for historical errors?

But we fall for this bit of click bait?

Foxweasel

Moralising? You're welcome!

Although I was talking about the practicalities of counter terrorism.

You adopt terrorists' methods, you become the terrorist.

As for high horse, well the view is better and the air cleaner than down amongst the animal's waste products.

I'm sure none of us would endorse the view that we should murder innocent family members.

Nice to know we agree.

Let there be no doubt … the Russians can be pretty ruthless when dealing with terrorists, etc., … for better or worse. Now Foxweasel having serve in Iraq and A'stan may see things a bit differently than those who have not, I'd think.

But I believe we see what happens when you take the fight to the enemy as we just did with ISIS in Iraq and Syria. You kill off enough of them … sometimes they leave the area. Yes, sometimes they make more elsewhere, but you kill off a lot of those too. It is the nature of war to kill the enemy. As frequently and as often as possible. It's been that way for a long time. And to compare COIN in the Mid East and A'stan to that of Vietnam is a different paradigm in many ways.

COIN presents a number unique situations, so you have to modify some things, etc. Everybody knows that. However, at the Fire Tm, Squad, Plt and Co. level. No matter who you are fighting; fire & maneuver, fire superiority, supporting fires, etc., win tactical engagements. And if the enemy is fanatical, radical, etc., it only makes you job that much clearer. You have to kill a lot of them off and often. As those types don't tend to surrender. E.g. like we saw with the IJFs of WWII.

Is that "les Guerriers de L'Ombre", JC or another one. Worth reading?

Remember reading something about this in the papers back in the 1980s. Whether or not it was propaganda, I'm not sure.

Whether you agree with "fighting fire with fire" or not when it comes to hostage-taking, the Russians have shown that they're less concerned with casualties and collateral damage than projecting the image that they're strong and will not give in to terrorist demands even when children are involved. After the Beslan School hostage incident ended, more than a third of the hostages died.

As a result, a terrorist would much rather take a westerner hostage than a Russian one. And a Chinese maybe even less.

Gwydion, perhaps you'd like to tell us how to combat such people then, be nice to them? build them a school? The only thing violent people respect is violence. Even our own government is slowly coming round to it, a couple of weeks ago the defence Secretary said we should kill all British IS members in Syria before they come home and murder our kids. I certainly couldn't care less how they are killed as long as they don't get to come home and start doing Beslans and Moscow theatres in our towns.

+1 Foxweasel and respect for your service…

I have never heard about the Cloud People… now I'm interested to know about them… (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

"Les tueurs de la république" Vincent Nouzille.

The red line between practical response, denying your own philosophy, results and navigating into political and media use of it is an art. With failures.

Pretty good odds that any male relative of a Hezbollah leader wouldn't exactly be innocent. At least past the age of puberty.

Might not have been involved in the particular kidnapping, but very likely to be involved in other terrorist activities.

Yeah, being nice to their family and friends and community and society is a good idea.

Building schools, hospitals, economic infrastructure. All good hearts and minds things – see the Marshall plan and how to prevent communist infiltration in a post war environment for a good use of cash 'being nice' to people.

See Greeece after the war for when you need the stick as well as the carrot.

By all means kill terrorists as long as you are killing the right people. Every time you try and terrorise their families you build up hatred and a fertile recruiting ground.

Unless you want your terrorist war to last forever you need to think about how to end it. Win it by all means: that does not mean slaughter everyone in the community the terrorist comes from.

PS In all the above, 'you', is used in place of an indefinite pronoun

Fake News!!!

It's not a war on terrorism, it's a war on ___________.

Even the French are catching on: link

Wolfhag

couple of weeks ago the defence Secretary said we should kill all British IS members in Syria before they come home and murder our kids. I certainly couldn't care less how they are killed as long as they don't get to come home and start doing Beslans and Moscow theatres in our towns.

Amen … I think there is a newer saying loosely based on an older one. IIRC, "The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist." …

Pretty good odds that any male relative of a Hezbollah leader wouldn't exactly be innocent. At least past the age of puberty.
Might not have been involved in the particular kidnapping, but very likely to be involved in other terrorist activities.

Yes, any member of ISIS, Hezbollah, etc. are terrorists. I don't care why or how they joined. Being stupid or misguided is no excuse, IMO. They are not like, e.g., the average member of the Axis of WWII that when the conflict ends. They will peacefully go back and be functioning member of a peaceful society.

Building schools, hospitals, economic infrastructure. All good hearts and minds things – see the Marshall plan and how to prevent communist infiltration in a post war environment for a good use of cash 'being nice' to people.

yes all Very true … But many places we are currently involved in are not the same paradigm as WWII Europe or even Japan. As I said, even the Vietnam war is not the same situation.

By all means kill terrorists as long as you are killing the right people. Every time you try and terrorise their families you build up hatred and a fertile recruiting ground.

Yes, we all understand that. However, with no one wearing a uniform and moving a long with, among the locals[read Mao] makes that a bit of a challenge. The US, UK, etc. go way out of our way to limit collateral damage. But yet it still happens. And will … no matter what we do. Short of not using live ordinance and going home.

Which yes, plays into the insurgent/terrorist narrative[read Che']. Every "innocent" killed could drive a survivor, etc., to join their ranks.

Unless you want your terrorist war to last forever you need to think about how to end it. Win it by all means: that does not mean slaughter everyone in the community the terrorist comes from.

Again nothing new or surprising there. And no one is saying that or advocates such.

However, in the current situation we find ourselves in. This did not start over night. It started with the 1st Crusade, in IIRC, 1098. As I said became much worse after the USA's support in Israel in '48. And many in those regions' peoples having no love for their former European colonial rulers.

This GWoT is a generational war. It will at least last that long before the terrorists, jihadis, etc., and their supporters move into the 21st Century. And not mention anything about the Crusaders, infidels, etc. As a "good" reason to go to war … At least as I see it.

Affirm Legion 4.

"…maybe a government has the moral cowardice to play them at their own game."
There, fixed it for ya. (Since actual moral courage would involve taking the long view and bringing these thugs to justice with due process and not compromising our principals no matter how long it took or how hard it got.)

Calypso!
My man!
That's what some of us did it all for.
Any fool can murder people.
It takes real guts to work through the system to eliminate the bad guys and leave the good guys standing.

Legion – this isn't about 'them', this is about us. We went through all that crap to be better than the other guy. Let's not blow it now. We've got standards man, we need to stick to them. Do that and we'll win.

US Standards and Due Process: Talk to anyone in the SigInt community about the standards and checks they need to go through before engaging a target.

First, qualified target lists come from the highest levels. They may have been reading a suspects e-mails for months, many times confirming his activities in arms dealings, attacks and child sex slavery.

SigInt and Spec Ops Teams in his AO are given his file to narrow down his day to day activities. They will most likely set up a false cell tower and attract his signal to it. Once the handshake is done the SS7 info can be gleaned to get his entire phone list and able to activate his camera and microphone remotely.

Tools of the trade: link

There is also a new app out that that will activate his cell phone and take a consecutive series of images as he walks around the interior of his room. The images are then arranged to give intel a 360-degree view of the interior of the room as if they were standing in it. Apps can also pick up his fingerprint when he taps his phone.

Once they have all of the action items checked off the case becomes actionable which could mean a drone strike, snatch, etc. There are hundreds of people involved in the process with reams of evidence. Every step is taken to limit innocent causalities, however, sometimes people see something they should not have seen or are where they should not be.

After a drone strike, a clean-up crew will chopper in with ziplock baggies to gather up traces of DNA and anything else that may be valuable intel.

The above is all unclassified stuff. Who knows what else is going on.

Wolfhag

I think some people on this thread have swallowed the "little book of COIN" It doesn't work against our current enemies, it wasn't particularly effective against our old ones. Calypso, keep your "fixed it for ya" teenage nonsense for Facebook.

I think I'd have to agree with foxweasel. Much of the current tactics are somewhat like playing "whack a mole" and there are potentially 1+ billion moles out there to whack. I don't think COIN works if you engage in attrition warfare and cannot draw your enemy into a decisive battle. If the enemy can avoid a decisive battle all he needs to do is hang on until your opponent tires and leaves.

Ideally, we want to be humanitarian and win their hearts and minds and limit civilian causalities. I think that has been tried too with various levels of success but sometimes the success is only temporary. If the local population supports the insurgents (or cannot fight them) there is almost nothing you can do to stop them. That includes turning the country into a free-fire zone.

One strategy that is sure to fail is to invite the moles into your house and let them feed and breed unchecked. You'll end up homeless or as a meal.

Wolfhag

Legion – this isn't about 'them', this is about us. We went through all that crap to be better than the other guy. Let's not blow it now. We've got standards man, we need to stick to them. Do that and we'll win.

Well aware of that … as I have repeatedly said, if we were not concerned about things like collateral damage[CD] etc. there would places on the planet that would look like the dark side of the Moon(without using WMDs, just standard HE, etc.) We 99.9% of the time follow the GCs, etc. THEY Don'T … There is the difference. And that .1% is not policy but an anomaly. Unlike them …

(Since actual moral courage would involve taking the long view and bringing these thugs to justice with due process and not compromising our principals no matter how long it took or how hard it got.)

Remember we are at war … not law enforcement actions. Albeit sometimes law enforcement gets involved. But when a Infantry and/or Tank unit takes to the field and given the sanction to kill, capture and destroy the enemy his equipment, supplies and support, whoever they may be. That is War … no one is going to be arrested or read their rights. They may be captured and will handled with in the GCs, etc.

But they are not really "criminals" in the traditional sense. They are again, the enemy that is trying to kill you and your comrades. And if given the chance they will kill your family, friends, etc. and want to destroy your way of life, etc.

And as an Infantry Leader I will do everything within my powers, within the GCs, etc. to make sure the enemy does not kill any of my men or my allies. Or get the opportunity to kill my family, friends, dogs[I like my dogs better than most people !], etc. And the best way to do that is remove them from the battlefield[i.e. that generally means to kill or if need be capture] them. Use the intel from all sources including those we capture. To assist in their comrades' removal. That is the reality of the situation as I see it.

And many here should remember Foxweasel was UK a Infantrymen, Wolfhag a US Marine, and even I served '79-'90 as a US Army Infantry Officer. We may see things a little more realistic, pragmatic, etc. than some others. I'd think … And I have to agree with all they posted.

"…maybe a government has the moral cowardice to play them at their own game."
There, fixed it for ya. (Since actual moral courage would involve taking the long view and bringing these thugs to justice with due process and not compromising our principals no matter how long it took or how hard it got.)

I think we all know that. We certainly have taken the "long view". As … We have been involved in the GWoT for almost 2 decades. I did mention this is a generational war.

Again, IMO I think we have shown a lot of moral courage or not compromising our principles by not using all our conventional firepower available. And do as Wolfhag mentioned. We generally try to be very "surgical". Again reread my comment about the dark side of the Moon. Regardless what some say, drones and cruise missiles, CAS, etc. are used in a circumspect surgical manner. Even the one time we used a MOAB in A'stan it was in a surgical manner. And No CD occurred … But a lot of ISIS was removed from the battlefield.

Now e.g. Foxweasel served in both Iraq and A'stan a number of tours, as did Wolfhag's Son, I did not. But I'm sure their definition of "moral courage" may be a little different than some others here.

Big Boys Rules.
As Foxweasel said the only thing violent people respect is violence.
Appeasement doesn't work. It makes the Radicals and bullies feel more empowered.
I consider it strange that in schools when taught about Hitler we are told that appeasement doesn't work yet our Western governments seem to believe it does? Although they are beginning to realise it doesn't or already know it doesn't but are afraid to say.
The Moral High ground is all very well but if somebody is going to attempt to physically harm me or my family I will defend myself.
Legion 4..well said.

andysyk,
It is not strange, it is all planned and executed: YouTube link

So is the Cold War really over and the West won? Of course, it is, right? However, I wonder what the KGB Colonel Vladimir Putin would have to say about that.

Seeing they could not compete militarily with the West did they abandon that strategy and implement a maskirovka strategy and foreign policy of "death by a thousand cuts" against the West. Is KGB propaganda turning the West into a bunch of "Useful Idiots" like Yuri claims?

Implementing economic sanctions against a country (whether you think they deserve it or not) is a declaration of economic warfare.

No one knows better than Putin it is easier to break the will of your enemy than to defeat him in battle. So it looks to me we are in another Cold War economic struggle with Russia but it is OK to disagree with me. At every step in our foreign policy Putin is there to sabotage it.

Ask yourself how much the propaganda of Socialism and free stuff from the rich has become accepted and ingrained into Western society, especially with the younger generation. Is the economic philosophy taught in the Western universities closer to a liberal free market or a tyrannical socialism?

Sorry if I got off topic Tango.

Wolfhag

Oh its tyrannical socialism totally, the right to free speech is all but dead in the West, unless it meets the media standard of course.
It is a very frightening situation.
Putin is more adept than most Western politicians could begin to realise, he is also more experienced in life than any western politician.
We did nothing in the Crimea, Putin tests all the time.
I think its good that he went into Syria though, somebody had to do it.
I primarily meant appeasement against radical Islam within western nations.

Appeasement is a massive Politically Correct psy op using threats and intimidation to silence free speech dissent and intimidate the opposition.

I just went through this stuff with my in-law family from SF. Wow, they feel they have the moral high ground by attempting to silence me and call me names. I pissed them off with the facts.

My nephew graduated from the UC system and is now advocating "free education" and Bernie Sanders for president. I told him he is a science denier as nothing in the universe is free.

Wolfhag

Wolf & andy +1

The argument is – is castrating and dismembering innocent people a good thing? (you are innocent until proven guilty remember)

The rest is obfuscation.

If you don't know the correct answer to that question – your moral compass is shot.

foxweasel:

8 tours of Iraq and Afghanistan

I'm curious as to what your job was during these tours. Were you a infantryman or a wrench turner or an HQ/admin type? Were you in the ground forces, air forces?

Mortar Fire Controller and JTAC. Why so curious?

Gwydion, it's obviously a bad thing. But in this day and age of flying aircraft into tower blocks, mass killings of kids at concerts etc and fighting an enemy that is more than happy to die, your black and white world doesn't exist. I'm a firm believer in the phrase "for the greater good" and if we have to be nastier than the enemy to keep our families safe and safeguard our way of life, then so be it.

foxweasel: Thanks. Why curious? Not all military experience is equal. There is a world of difference between an artilleryman's military experience and that of a finance clerk. In my view, they don't rate the same regard.

is castrating and dismembering innocent people a good thing? (you are innocent until proven guilty remember)

I don't think anyone was alluding to that, etc. I know I wasn't nor Foxweasel or Wolfhag … And if those did occur … as I said, that was very rare from the West. Based on the hundreds of thousands of troops deployed to combat zones like Iraq, A'stan, etc. And as I, Wolfhag and Foxweasel have said in an insurgency especially in an urban environment, it's not always clear nor "black & white". No matter how much we try to be careful, etc. CD, etc., still will happen. All we can do it try to limit it as much as possible in each situation.

And if someone is in a uniform or not. And they are trying to kill my troops, comrades, etc., they are not innocent. As I have been taught in my distant youth. They are only targets. Again as I have trained long ago …

However, as we see, "the enemy" e.g. ISIS, AQ, the Taliban, AS, BH, etc. are not so "innocent" of such war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc. And we very much 99.9% of time succeed in Not "imitating" them …

Not all military experience is equal. There is a world of difference between an artilleryman's military experience and that of a finance clerk. In my view, they don't rate the same regard.

I agree and it is at least one thing we and many other can agree upon, I'd think. E.g. Infantrymen and Tankers, etc., will have a bit of a different POV, etc. than others service members.

However, I will Never disregard/dismiss another's service, no matter what their job was/is. I'm Not saying anyone here is doing that. I Only want to make my point clear. I have the greatest respect for most Vets I have met or have been associated with. As I know you are a Vet as well Begemot and a former Infantry Officer IIRC, as am I …

A hospital in 1997, numerous bombings, and Beslan (when that happened I was in China, and the state media had a pool on how many hostage were going to die this time).
And before you say "But these were done by the Chechens!" they were still (a)jihadists and (b) trained by AlQeada.

they were still (a)jihadists and (b) trained by AlQeada.

Amen … And so it continues, with the addition of ISIS, etc. The other side of the same coin, IMO. But like AQ, their numbers are dwindling it appears. Regradless it still looks like this GWoT, will be here for quite awhile …