"meaning of pinned & suppressed" Topic

Hi all

So question what is the generally accepted definition of a unit [ infantry squad ] being pinned or suppressed ?

In my home made rules using Platoons made up of 3 Squads I would like the outcome of shooting to be either miss – pinned – suppressed – eliminated.

Now my thoughts are :-

Pinned – receiving sufficient volume of fire to cause them to be hugging cover but able to fire back ?

Suppressed – receiving sufficient volume of fire to cause them to be hugging cover but unable to fire back ?

If I go with those definitions above question is what happens next ?

Do I allow pinned units to retreat away from squad firing on them ? and if so are they still pinned ?

I wanted two dice rolls that result in a suppression to eliminate a unit ?

Then each Platoon could have a moral check that is simply if 2 squads are eliminated you will retreat from the enemy.

regards Paul

You could allow a pinned/suppressed unit to withdraw if their route is out of Los of known enemy.
Suppressed indicates move to cover if in open.
I think morale is a separate set of states.

I think the distinction is so subtle that you can shave it into to levels but it isn't really necessary. Give the definitions you want and explain it as a such in your designer notes.

There is no "generally accepted definition".
It means what the game designer wants it to mean. And woe unto a player who tries to import a usage from one game into playing another.

Perfect example. In chess, a knight is "pinned" if moving it exposes the king to a direct attack. In Flames of War?

Suppression is usually a temporary effect.

Sop is to suppress a unit and then close in to destroy it. Reduce a suppressed in close combat ability or make fully active units destroy suppressed enemy on contact.

Not for the first time, I'm going to say "What Winston said."

In my opinion you should start with a sense of what you want the game to feel like, then work the fire process and results towards that.

In general, I don't like it when there are lot of states a unit can be in – pinned, suppressed, routed, out-of-command, depleted, low ammo, etc. Just pick one, or two if they are quite distinct.

I also don't like it when units are magically frozen in the open. I suppose it happens, but if they can get to cover people usually run. Once in cover it's reasonable to say they can't leave until they recover somehow, or they are no longer fired at by the enemy, or something.

I actually think original Squad Leader handled this really well, but then I'm a dinosaur.

I see it like this, but as had been said its is in the eye of the beholder.

Suppression of an element of infantry, occurs when it that has suffered sufficient incoming fire of sufficient accuracy that it is incapable of firing back effectively. In our rules we have three levels of suppression, the higher the level of suppression the higher the longer it takes to recover.

The only options for a suppressed element is to hunker down more or retreat ignominiously.

Pinning to ME is when a unit is incapable of moving forward in the presence of enemy fire. We do not have rules for this. Effectively if the unit as a has sufficient elements suppressed it will be incapable of forward movement. In some cases limited return fire may be possible if all elements are not suppressed but forward movement is not logically sensible.

Our rules are designed not to be excessively random so no brazen act of stupidity and die rolling on behalf of a player, refusing to stay pinned and attempting to advance will just result in very high losses for no gain.

Thanks for your input.

So I can define them as above , especially as it's my game :-)

It is not unrealistic for pinned units to retreat if they can.

Will only have these two states for units.

I understand what you are saying about being in cover , and was hoping to have an initiative driven game in the style of Crossfire where cover is important.

However as most games use distance based moves , surely they lead to units having to stop in the open running between the available cover ?

regards Paul

There are definitions for each in military dictionaries. However, their use in context may vary between author and definitely vary between game designers.
Game designers may need to illustrate a concept with the use of the words. If he is using both in his glossary then it may be a case of showing severity.
For example Pinned would imply a condition where the target unit cannot fire or move. This may be the result of heavy direct fire onto their position.
On the other hand suppressed may also imply this but if you are using both, then suppressed may imply a situation where the unit can fire but at a reduced effectiveness and move but at a slower rate. A pinned unit could not do either. An example of a situation for being suppressed would be for a unit that had been caught in an artillery or bombardment impact area and has been disorganized.

stormbird,
A lot depends on groundscale. As originaly desiged Crosfire represented about 300m of real terrain (rifle renge) so the timescales for running say half the board are very short. I play at company level in more open terrain with a groundscale of 1mm to 1 m using 1/144 scale models. So a run of say half a board In crosfaire is only 150mm in my terms. Therfore if its a long run troops may be shot at for quite a while if they try and run more than 150m.

Crosfire in its later guises seemed to me to fail as artillery cannot easily be used as the danger close can be 200m or more, not very practical on a board representing 300m.

As others have said, it's your game, so define the terms as you want. Then be sure to playtest them to see if the distinctions help or hamper gameplay and enjoyment.

You don't need a lot of conditions. Skirmish games for any period, from the Paleolithic to the Far Future (tm), can probably get away with:
(1) Fully able to function;
(2) Unable to function (other than to attempt to become fully able again); and
(3) Fleeing in terror.

I always assume 'Pinned' to mean a unit/figure is unable to move from his position.He/ they can usually fire back.
'Suppressed', to me, means unable to shoot back at full effect, and unable to move apart from withdrawing.

The Squad Leader game used a state called "broken". Broken units would have to retreat to cover and then try to rally back to good status. If they were fired on in a turn while in broken status, their rally check was harder to pass because they were still under fire. I believe that it was called "desperation morale". The game had a pinned state too.