"POL and Ammo reload time" Topic

OK so I am having some second thoughts on the time taken to refuel, Do urgent day to day maintenance and re-arming tracked vehicles.

So Guestimates to refuel, re-arm and do basic maintenance on a Modern tank M1, Leopard etc. Note these times should be for say a company 8(ish) tanks.

time for other vehicles is more than welcome.

Just as background for lesser mortals like myself:-

Tanks don't park next to the ammo dump in case it goes wrong.

At least in the manuals the tank is supposed to store one charge before you fetch another so you don't get a chain reaction if it goes off.

Long rod penetrators are heavy 36 lb(ish) so nobody is going to break records moving them.

Tanks don't all re-fuel at the same time for the same reasons and they need a LOT of fuel.

All the best for the season Brian

The bug is mightier than GW, the Empire or "The Force."

@UshCha: Well, the US does it a bit differently than the Krauts do.

The US airlifts monster fuel bladders and fills tanks from them like filling a car.

The Krauts still use Jerry Cans.

When you're putting 500 gal of fuel into a tank, it's a LOT faster to basically empty one bladder than 100 Jerry Cans!

I thought the bug was fixed, and this no longer happens.

It's all an illusion

Someone forgot to use the hand sanitizer, again!

In 1940, the French used tanker trucks.

Only one tank could refuel at a time.

French tank units took much longer to refuel than equivalent German tank units.

The time it took to refuel further reduced the mobility and responsiveness of the French armored formations.

The longer a tank unit has to sit in one place waiting for the last tank to finish fueling, the more likely it is to be detected, and they greater the danger. Of course, the unit could simply be overrun.

'79-'90 … We refueled, rearmed, resupplied daily. We had procedures, i.e. setting up a secured Resupply Point(s), etc. daily. Many times twice/day. Tank & Mech units take longer to resupply, obviously … And Fuel Tankers are in the Bn Support assets.

In light units e.g. the 101 we've had been resupplied by items tossed out of a helicopter, landing in an LZ, a parachute drop, the XO or 1SG taking the to CO's M151 with trailer back to the Combat Trains or even Field Trains to get ammo, water, food, etc., …

You do everything with the priority being establishing Security first. E.g. so you don't get overrun, etc.

When the panzers are across the Meuse, there's no such thing as security :)

Well … by that time the Allies were pretty much in disarray or something like it …

Well from I recall of Soviet tank resupply, they did have the entire company resupplied at once. Giant fuel bladders with hoses so that the company can line up and get it done as quick as possible. I think at this time they would also have loaded ammunition, but I am unsure of that.

We refueled and rearmed by Plt/by Company in Armor and Mech units. We had, IIRC at least 6-8 Fuel Tankers, a 2 dozen or more Cargo Trucks, both 2&1/2 and 5 Ton. All organic to the Bn. And eventually we go some HEMMTs in the Bn, which could IIRC 8 Tons. So there was more than 1 vehicle getting topped off and reloading more ammo, etc. at a time …

Think several NATO armies used the fuel bladder technique in the 1980s- I have a photo of a Heer CH53 with one underslung somewhere. The Bunderswehr like others also had tanker trucks with multiple hoses for unit refuelling- so certainly not just jerry cans for them.

I think Malcolm Cleverly's 'Armoured Farmer' about the 3RTR in the Cold War has a bit about resupply on FTX- they could be pretty quick when the umpires and senior officers were about apparently.

Fuel is easy, ammo not so much.

You can run multiple lines off a tanker truck. I've seen as many as four being run off a single fuel HEMMT.

Ammo, especially missiles and main gun rounds take much longer because they have to be broken out of any packaging and loaded into the vehicles individually. Granted they can be broken out prior but they still get loaded basically the same way they did in WWII, by the crew one at a time into the turret or floor ready racks.

If you consider the process to rearm a single tank, somebody picks the round up off the pile, hands it to the guy on the deck, who passes it through the hatch to the loader in the turret who stows it. Now most modern tanks carry 40+ main gun rounds so even if you get it down to a minute per round, that is 40 minutes per tank, so you can do the math based on the number of arming points available. Per Legion's post, you would probably run through the arming points by platoon, so figure each platoon takes a minimum of 40 minutes to arm. While one platoon is arming, the second would be refueling and the third pulling any necessary maintenance actions. All of this is happening under the watchful eyes of the NCOs because the officers are getting debriefed and getting new orders from higher's S3/CO/XO.

Don't forget that all of this activity is going to generate a lot of interest from enemy Intel gatherers so you have to be dispersed and concealed if possible.

We used to plan on an Attack team of 3 Scouts and 5 Cobra gunships taking a minimum of an hour to fully rearm and refuel. Add to that time traversing from the previous battle position back to the FAARP (Foward Area Arming & Refueling Point), plus time back to the battle area.

FARRPs were supposed to be out of enemy DS artillery range so they were usually 15 – 30 minutes away, although they could be farther away depending on the tactical situation.

Like anything else in modern war, a lot depends on what else is happening.

For example using aviation parlance, FAARPs need to be restocked with fuel and ammo, need to displace from time to time, and may be supporting more than one unit so congestion can also be a problem. I spent a lot of time on the ground at flight idle waiting for a fuel point to open up during ODS.

Also, the FARRP is subject to the same MOPP status as everybody else which is going to slow the process down considerably if it is greater than 2, and they are usually responsible for their own local security which is going to reduce the number of soldiers able to hump the fuel and ammo.

Oh yeah, all of this has to happen at night and in bad weather too.

Seems like every FARRP I've ever used was a sea of mud, even in the desert.

You done this before, it appears ScoutJock …

Krauts?

Really?

Because typing Germans is so fething challenging?

I'm sure nothing offensive was intended by it Golgoloth- but you make a fair point.

Yes during the DRS excercises, we did the refueling and ammo resupply in several different ways.
In 1977 and 78, we conducting several methods with the Pre-positioned supply points within km of the front lines and other set up in depth. I have seen bladders and jerry cans used. I also watched as a GOER fuel truck fueled a line of APCs. Sadly the GOERs vibrations caused it to roll down hill and crush, split, an LT between it and the APC. Later my in my new job as Division Safety officer, I had to investigate the accident.
Based on the tactical situation, many short cuts are taken to void peacetime safety issues.

In current US usage their are two primary methods of resupply of tactical vehicles. "Service Station" and "Tailgate methods."

Service station method has the units combat trains (or supporting logistics unit) set up a "Rapid Replenishment Point" (normally just slightly off a road) which the tactical unit then drives to and 'through.' The RRP normally has separate stations for refueling, ammunition upload and to load water, food and maybe parts.

If things are well coordinated and rehearsed a company sized unit (usually around 14 tactical vehicles can be resupplied in 30 minutes or less this way. This method can be used when a unit is marching or the unit may pull out of defensive positions (usually by platoon) to move to the RRP.

The tail gate method has the combat trains travel to each platoons tactical position and refuel and rearm in position. The advantage is the unit can still cover it's sectors while being resupplied.
This takes more time, as an estimate (good enough for gaming), I'd say two hours is required to service a company sized unit deployed in a defensive positions. One hour if the unit is 'concentrated' in an assembly area.

Having been a Mech Bn S4, BnMO, BdeMO and finally a Bde AS4 … I became very involved in the whole Log/Maint. system … It is pretty "amazing " how the entire system works to keep the line troops supplied, shooting, moving and communicating, etc.

The last thing any leader wants is a broken Log/Maint."machine". All he wants is to "fight the battle" so to speak and not have to worry about beans, bullets, down/broken vehicles, etc.

Apatche6,
Thanks ballpark figure is all I need. Much appreciated.

Krauts?

Really?

Because typing Germans is so fething challenging?

Because I haven't found a pejorative for 'Americans' that is as offensive as 'Americans' yet.

Wait … I'm sure someone here may try to find one …

Lion southerners in the US military do hate to be called Yanks. LOL.

Great info Apache 6 and Legion 4, thanks.

Hey, maybe we can call the Americans "colonists". I'm from the South, I never took offense to "Yanks". Brit RM's and Ruggers called me Yank many times. I took it as a badge of honor. I always thought of it as we "yanked" your chestnuts out of the fire twice. LOL.

Wolfhag

I took it as a badge of honor. I always thought of it as we "yanked" your chestnuts out of the fire twice. LOL.

southerners in the US military do hate to be called Yanks.

You "all" got that right ! LOL ! And I'm a Yankee from Ohio !

And as always glad to help Wolf !

I do recall older troopers who had been in Germany calling Germans krauts and even heard Jerry a few times too. Also the British were Brits or limies, and the Russians were commies or Ivan. I think I heard an old salty NCO call the French frogs!

I'm sure they had similar fun names for us. What's the problem?

On topic- I remember log pacs being a daily thing. The trucks would show up at some place agreed upon and we would resupply. Gas was pretty quick with the HEMMITS tankers. Ammo was a lot slower. In fact we would gang up as a platoon to help each tank rearm. It was a lot faster than every tank crew for themselves. Sometimes we would gang up as sections but that slower than having the whole platoon helping.

Tgunner,
thats interesting. I assumed that tank crews did it ontheir own so that heven forbid, it went wrong fro cuases various but including the odd enemy shell, casualties would be minimised. A whole platoon round one tank would be really bad new for a lot more folk.

My Rugby team played the HMS Hermes team when it pulled into south Florida in 1976. After the game and party, I took a group of Royal Marines on a tour of the nightclubs in the Miami area and introduced to the girls. We had a great time. When we got back to the carrier they invited me aboard and we had a number of cans of "grog". I passed out in one of the bunks and had breakfast in their mess hall and then went home to nurse my hangover. They called me Yank the whole time. We had a great time. I still have the RM insignia they gave to me.

Wolfhag

I assumed that tank crews did it ontheir own so that heven forbid, it went wrong fro cuases various but including the odd enemy shell, casualties would be minimised. A whole platoon round one tank would be really bad new for a lot more folk.

Again depends on terrain & situation. As I said on another threat, "Speed is Security". The faster you get it done the sooner you can move, etc.

Wolf … sounds like the RMs had a good time under your "guidance" …

I assumed that tank crews did it ontheir own so that heven forbid, it went wrong fro cuases various but including the odd enemy shell, casualties would be minimised. A whole platoon round one tank would be really bad new for a lot more folk.

Again depends on terrain & situation. As I said on another threat, "Speed is Security". The faster you get it done the sooner you can move, etc.

Yeah, if you can get the whole platoon reloaded before the other guys can work through their call-for-fire procedure, you will be gone (or at least back under armor) before the attack lands.

Similar thought applies to submarine operations.

Hopefully the other guy who is trying to kill you does not even know you are there. To call in fire … But again … "Speed is Security" … Well trained, organized troops/crews with good leadership is an asset no matter you are doing.

@Lion: We tend to call them "Seppo" (short for "Septic tank" (which rhymes with "yank") but also tend to be "full of crap".

Not forgetting SPAMs!

The UK system was known as the rolling replen. There are images on the net of one taking place using 1:100 models,

Tally Ho!

I do recall older troopers who had been in Germany calling Germans krauts and even heard Jerry a few times too. Also the British were Brits or limies, and the Russians were commies or Ivan. I think I heard an old salty NCO call the French frogs!

I'm sure they had similar fun names for us. What's the problem?

I remember well the time my ship's crew got yelled at by a Brit Royal Marine RSM before a NATO change-of-command ceremony. "Right, you lot of American sailors, STOP LOOKING LIKE AMERICAN SAILORS!!!"

LOL !

@chromedog: ah, cockney rhyming slang…

I think I know what that Royal Marine RSM was complaining about. Sailors can't march for crap, and are notorious for talking in the ranks.

When I was in Germany(7 years total) the Germans called each other "comrade". American soldiers shortened that to "Rad"

In one particular unit in Germany we did what we called a ht refuel. The battery refueled by platoon, about a dozen vehicles total. It was set up on the route of march with each station a vehicle interval apart, usually about 100 yards. We would know the time we had usually a minute but sometimes 90 seconds. As soon as the lead vehicle stopped, the clock started. 60 seconds later, fuel shut off and away we would go. And we picked up everything, MREs POL, ammo, whatever. Amazing what you can get loaded when you know you are very time limited.

LArge amounts of ammo, would bring that into the battery when we were set up.

Then I got to the states. Dismount at the start point of the FAARP, slowly ground guide the vehicle through while looking properly turned out, the CSM would be watching. Took a couple of hours to get everything done. 1st time I did it I laughed my ass off at them. Got properly chewed out for it to, particularly when I said Russian ground attack would turn us all into crispy critters they ever do some dumb like this in a real combat zone.

But then I never learned to keep my mouth shut when I thought we were doing something tactically stupid. Anybody wonder why I never made 1st SGT? I never did wonder at all.

Owen

Sometimes it's smart to play stupid … But I only made it to 03 …

When my son was a Corporal he warned others in his unit a certain E-8 that was not up to his job, goofing off and not scheduling training for his team. He was outspoken enough that he got 3 page 11's of which he signed off on about making negative remarks about a senior enlisted. During the deployment, his team discovered that the E-8, by not following procedures, had listed some US citizens as viable "targets" to prosecute. The E-8 was sent back to the states.

His LT gave my son the three page 11's and said he can shred them and the Colonel personally thanked him. It all turned out fine.

Wolfhag

Legion for me the biggest thing was, can I still look myself in the mirror. And I still can, so it all cool

Wolf, sounds like your son did the right thing. As I said, like in a sports team not all are first teamers, etc. For a variety of reasons.

Badger, I understand, but sometimes, I still think I "failed" … but yes, it is all cool !

A couple of the best Officers I had got out early due to mickey mouse crap. I told them the real measure is, if your troops wanted you along when bullets were in the air, you did just fine. No other standard needed.

Just as an old grunt 1sg told me once, the CIB is the only marksmanship badge that counts

What's that old saying, "It's dangerous to be right when everyone else is wrong".

My son got out because of a change in the command culture and he didn't want to push his luck. He got hit 3x on four deployments. Being in SigInt he walked around with a 3-foot long antenna sticking up from his pack. Basically advertising, "Shoot me first". At 6'5" he made a great target too. The excellent body armor he was issued saved his life more than once.

Wolfhag

badger …

Yeah Wolf 6'5" does make a good target. Again, I think he made all the choices/decisions.