"Is Age of Sigmar loosing it's appeal ?" Topic

"Everything I've written down here is purely my own personal opinion. It is in no way representative to what others might think, but is just a personal opinion based on what I experienced myself and saw at my local games club.

The short answer: yes

The long answer: bear with me…

When I got back to wargaming past april, Age of Sigmar was still rather new and I decided to leap right back in because…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Hmm, I expected a pun or something.

Who is Sigmar? And how old is he? Or are we supposed to guess his age?

Dan

GW's sales figures will answer "No"!

What appeal?

They lost me when they blew up the Old World, but as Cyrus points out, sales seem to indicate that they did the right thing (purely from a business perspective).

It never had any appeal, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm distracted by other things GW at the moment, including Horus Heresy and Necromunda, but I've been getting an itch to play some AoS again. It is a great game and GW did a good job with the design and the follow up, especially the campaign books.

I'll probably run an event at the local store in the next month or so.

Considering one can use older GW models freely, AoS corrected many past wrongs IMO. I do think there is a place for rank and file "big battle" gaming still within AoS. They have managed to have uber simple up to more complicated games and points in between now, which is a good thing. Put it this way, I didn't play Warhammer before but am playing AoS now in large part because it is better supported and the figures are great (although the newer dwarves aren't my taste).

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

They lost me when they blew up the Old World, but as Cyrus points out, sales seem to indicate that they did the right thing (purely from a business perspective).

From a business perspective, I guess so. Going frrom "mass battles" with blocks of troops, to a skirmish game means you can get into the game quicker. Probably appeals to new gamers. They don't need to drop a grand on an army, just a hundred bucks to get a skirmish force.

But as an old timer, the destruction of the old world left me cold. And I don't like any of the new factions that were ramped up either. I just want to fight dwarves and goblins and skeletons and such. Not a skirmish, but a battle.

I even went looking just last night to see if I could figure out how to play AoS. I found the rules as a free download. I had no idea which book to get which had the army lists, and then there were some other compilations of various armies, and I wasn't sure where my Orcs were located.

Not sure I want to skirmish with them anyway. And I am not rebasing 300 miniatures onto round bases.

And I do this every 6 months, and walk away from it every 6 months because there is just no appeal.

But next summer, I will once again go looking to see if I can figure out how to play a game of AoS with an army of greenskins, and which books to get so I know how to compose my force.

Happy it appears to be working for GW, but sad that I lost out on a game to play. I moved over to Kings of War and I like it just fine, so I am not crying too much!

It would be nice if they produced a cleaned up version of "classic" Warhammer (perhaps add a bit of Warmaster) while also supporting round base AOS for those who want a more skirmish feel.

Well eventually I'll get out the Olde World version of A Game of Knights and Knaves and that will cover all the "classic" fantasy armies (now seen all over our tables as we continue to playetest).

Still for Old Hammer fans it would be a nice gesture if GW would at least just issued an improved version.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame and Glory Games

No one makes you use round bases. The rules are distinctly non-base-centric, even at points it probably NEEDS to make distinctions. IMO, round DOES look better, which is a big reason why they did it.

And you could always just use sabot bases on your round-based minis. Litko makes some wonderful ones.

I re-based many of my 25mm-square Warhammer minis on round bases some time ago. Orcs and chaos warriors barely rank up as it is, and I hated having to puzzle out "who can fit in on the right of this guy with the big axe, or do I just need to put him on the outside edge?". Now, I can spin them 360 degrees til they all manage to rank up together. Usually.

I love(d) the Old World. I like aspects of AoS- but to me, the OW is like Mom's homecooked best, while AoS is like Halloween candy.

@SeattleGamer,
Age of Sigmar is scenario (narrative) driven. You then pick out the units you want and their War Scrolls. Search online for the War Scrolls you need. There are no points, just the War Scrolls. Play out your scenario.

Here's the greenskins. There is a points total in the list, if you want it.

PDF link

Kings of War is actually more fun and balanced than the last several editions of WHFB, IMO. So if you are looking for rank and file mass battle, that's a good idea.

Age of Sigmar has several ways it can be played, but if you want to play the most familiar way (Matched Play… i.e. points), then you would need to purchase the General's Handbook 2017, which has the most updated points. You could also purchase the Skirmish book and use the points in there to play smaller games. In either case, the warscrolls (unit stats) are free for download. There are some battalions you may want to use in the Matched Play games, so buying the relevant "army book" is also recommended for Matched Play, but not entirely necessary.

There is no strict requirement for basing in the core rules, in fact basing doesn't matter at all. In Matched Play, round bases are highly recommended, but if you are not exploiting square/oversized/undersized bases in some way, people won't care. I play with square bases sometimes , when using troops I haven't rebased. In a major tournament it would be good form to have your miniatures on round bases.

If you are playing with reasonable people, Narrative Play works fine… just work out a scenario and play. You won't need any points, changes to basing or anything , so that will be free. We have played historical games like this for years, I am not sure why people lost their mind over the lack of points (except that the Warhammer Community is often dominated by the "competitive" players). Start with a small game and add units, tweak the scenario, etc and you'll soon be able to set up fun games.

To answer the title of the thread, AoS is as popular or perhaps more popular than WHFB 8th edition. The Adepticon tournament has sold out. Sales are better for GW than WHFB. So I'm pretty sure it has not lost its appeal.

Please help me understand … GW destroyed the previous universe after people spent all that money buying, basing and painting figures and learning rules for it?*

Do they get to at least use those older figures in the new one, without suffering some penalty for doing so?

Dan
* Despite the record sales, which might reflect mostly brand new customers, that move must have caused some of the previous GW followers to take the first available exit off the GW tollway.

We played the Battle of Maughthrond Pass scenario (included in 4th edition boxed set) using original armies (High Elves v Goblins) and AoS rules not long ago, with no problems.

"GW destroyed the previous universe after people spent all that money buying, basing and painting figures and learning rules for it?*"

Yes, but of course it is a fantasy universe so you can play in it whenever you want. The entire Horus Heresy setting for 40K is in a 'world" that was 'destroyed' but it is fairly popular, and probably the novels are more popular than the actual 40K novels.

I'm not sure why, if I can play a game set in 480 BC between Greeks and Persians, a world that doesn't exist any more, someone can't play a battle between Empire and Orcs in a world that never existed and still doesn't exist but which was "destroyed."

Also the Mortal Realms are big enough that there are likely areas where human civilization still holds out to some degree, so even playing classic Warhammer armies in the new setting is not unreasonable.

"Do they get to at least use those older figures in the new one, without suffering some penalty for doing so?"

Not only can they but all of the lists are free and for some of them they won't be updated so even if you believe the myth that GW invalidates half your army with each new edition you no longer have to worry about it happening if you play with one of those armies.

I'm not sure why, if I can play a game set in 480 BC between Greeks and Persians, a world that doesn't exist any more, someone can't play a battle between Empire and Orcs in a world that never existed and still doesn't exist but which was "destroyed."

I totally understand, and of course, you are right. And nothing prevents me from bringing my old Warhammer Quest to the store to see if I can get anyone interested in playing. Or Gorkamorka. Or WFB 5th Edition if so inclined.

But the reality of it is that stores like to sell stuff. And me, showing up with WFB 5th and trying to get a leage playing isn't going to help the store sell AoS … which is what they have on the wall. At best, some gamers might want paints.

So sure, while I can easily get one of my gaming buddies to play whatever former version of WFB suits us, no new units are coming out for the older editions. We would need to get the newest army book or article or whatever, to try and incorporate that cool new unit into the old army, and now we are coming up with our own points.

Which is why if the world isn't destroyed, it can be an easy move to go from 4th to 5th then later to 6th and then later to 7th and so on. About every 4 years WFB went thru an edition change, but it was never a huge shock. A few rule changes, some streamlining, tamper a bit with magic to tone it down or beef it up.

But there was a HUGE change going from 8th to AoS. Bye bye blocks of troops. Hello, fantasy Skirmish.

I didn't know how to even field my Greenskins, nor my friends their dwarves and skeletons and high elves. The free 4-page rules download was basically nothing. Where was the meat? I still don't know which books I would need to cover the various armies that my friends and I have.

I just don't think AoS was intended to still support former WFB players. That it can doesn't mean is was designed to. Everything I see about it indicates it is really a fantasy skirmish game. The Start Collecting boxes (just checked the one for IronJawz = Black Orcs) has 11 foot troops and 3 cav figures. The Start Collecting box for Greenskins has a few more models (11 foot troops, 6 cav and a chariot). My greenskin armies had a minimum of 100 figures, and I am talking 1500 point games, not the full-on 2000 point games. When I went full-on gobbos, we are talking 3 blocks of 40 gobbos each. It felt like a massive wave, because compared to my enemies, I had so many more figures.

I get it … the game has changed. In such a big way that it really isn't WFB at all anymore. It is a new fantasy skirmish game that plays differently, but if you want you can still use your old models. Just not like you used to use them.

Still disappointed in where they took the game.

SeattleGamer: "And nothing prevents me from bringing my old Warhammer Quest to the store to see if I can get anyone interested in playing. Or Gorkamorka. Or WFB 5th Edition if so inclined.

But the reality of it is that stores like to sell stuff. And me, showing up with WFB 5th and trying to get a leage playing isn't going to help the store sell AoS … which is what they have on the wall."

I had a feeling there was going to be a "but". :)

Dan

Where is that "oldhammer" link.

GW's sales figures will answer "No"!

Not where they have been making their money.

That would be with the all of the one off games and new 40K.

With the new 40K you need to spend around $150 USD – $200 USD just to get all of the rules and that is without buying the new boxset.

Rulebook, Indexes, Codexes and then the Data Cards.

Just look at the new Necromunda Edition.

For around $170 USD you can get the boxset and Gang War.

But you will have to spend more on the Gangs and the extras.

When all said and done you will have spent over $250 USD minimum and probably more than twice that if you want more of the gangs.

They have found new ways to empty out their customers wallets.

Age of Sigmar and just Fantasy 40K and there are better Fantasy rules out there.

As to record sales they still are not coming close to what Asmodee is making.

So not really "Record Sales".

Fake News!

I have never been able to find a breakdown of sales for GW. It has all just been lumped together. A long time ago, they used to report by product line, and that went away.

So I would be curious to know how Mithmee has the numbers so he can comment on which product lines are making the most money.

Their sideline games have always been low-entry-cost products, and today is no different than 25 years ago.

For $150 USD or so bucks, a person can get Necromunda and the Gang War rules. That gives them everything they need to play one of two gangs. And if that is all they want, they are done.

If they want more gangs, then for $60 USD or so dollars every quarter, they can get a new gang and their card deck. That is pretty darn cheap compared to starting an army.

I just hope the newest Necromunda lasts for more than 2 years.

So I would be curious to know how Mithmee has the numbers so he can comment on which product lines are making the most money.

What have they been putting out over the last year.

I am in the two FLGS every week and it is very apparent on what GW has been putting out and very little of it deals with AoS.

For $150 USD USD or so bucks, a person can get Necromunda and the Gang War rules.

I think it would be a bit more but the final cost will be far more than what I paid to get Massive Darkness.

I have seen the new House Escher miniatures and prefer the 1st Edition miniatures that were metal and do not require you to assemble them.

But if others want to give GW money that is their decision and more power to them.

LOL "Massive Darkness". That's not even in the same genre. At least you could compare it to Infinity. That's closer, maybe.

LOL…. "That's more expensive than some random thing I bought"

That's not even in the same genre.

Really!

Massive Darkness

Necromunda

AoS – The Silver Tower

Looks to be in the same genre too me.

Oh and a nearly $3.6 USD million Kickstarter is not some random thing.

link

Both Zombicide Black Plague and Massive Darkness can be played on a Tabletop just like AoS.

So they are the same Genre and better games as well.

Genre, as in fantasy vs scifi

--------------------------
genre(ʒɒnrə)

Word forms: genres

countable noun

A genre is a particular type of literature, painting, music, film, or other art form which people consider as a class because it has special characteristics.
[formal]
…his love of films and novels in the horror genre.

Mithmee, did you say you went to two FLGS and saw that they were putting out very little for AoS in the past year? This is more made up stuff from Mithmee, of course, AoS has had plenty of major releases over the last year… In spite of a brand new version of 40k, Necromunda, and Shadespire taking up the spotlight!

AoS is not the money maker for GW.

40K, Blood Bowl and now Necromunda have and will be the items that will make them money.

I have seen individuals playing:

40K, Blood Bowl, X-Wing & Armada

Never have seen AoS play once in either store.

I did see RuneWars being played several times though.

Like we've said before, what you see being played in your store is NOT indicative of what is going on in other stores. In my own local store, we regularly see people playing 40K, Age of Sigmar, Shadespire. Runewars is non-existent, Malifaux is non-existent, X-Wing and Armada, while played every so often, are practically non-existent these days too. Heck until they get more gangs out Necromunda is non-existent. The ONLY non-GW game gaining any traction is Infinity.

HOWEVER, would I point to all those games that are not being played at my store and call them failures, or cite poor sales etc? No I would not. And nor should you.

Didn't call it a failure only stated that it is not being played in my area and it is not the game that is bringing in the money for GW.

I detest AoS and will never play it and in my area of the country it looks like others are not playing it either.

I will only say that there are far better games out there than AoS.

The many people who are buying AoS would disagree with you, Mithmee. (And there are many more than were buying Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th edition, and probably 7th as well)

There are several options for getting started with AoS:
The standard starter set
Blightwar
Thunder & Blood
Storm of Sigmar
Also if you already have the minis all you need is the 4 page rules plus the free PDF downloads for your chosen army. All the currently available models have their warscrolls right on their sale page. Older stuff is found in the rules download area of the site. If your a "must have points" kinda player you can always use the Warscroll Builder found here:
link
You still want a copy of either/both General's handbook for magic items, bonus command abilities, etc.

But that is all you need to play this game, rules (free), models (whatever your willing to spend), warscrolls (free), General's Handbooks ($35 each)