Help support TMP

"Over the Hills - Talavera, Dawn Attack Play-test" Topic

13 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.

Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board

Back to the Historical Wargaming Message Board

Back to the Napoleonic Battle Reports Message Board

1,042 hits since 5 Dec 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

carojon05 Dec 2017 11:53 p.m. PST

On a first assessment most wargamers knowing the outcome of the first French attack at Talavera at dawn on the 28th July 1809 might not feel there is much to learn or worth playing when Ruffin's tired division were bundled back down the slope of the Medellin some 1300 men fewer than when they came up it.


Of course that was what happened but it was not what Marshal Victor had planned and why it turned out that way remains a mystery but poses an intriguing question, what might have happened if the plan had been followed to the letter.

If you would like to see a potential answer to that question then just follow the link to JJ's


Jonathan (JJ)

d88mm1940 Supporting Member of TMP06 Dec 2017 10:31 a.m. PST

Nice battle. Good report.
What's the story with the Force Cards?

carojon06 Dec 2017 12:23 p.m. PST

Hi, thank you.
The Force Cards are used to record accrued fatigue hits that are a measure of degraded efficiency due to casualties or excessive movement and other factors. Once a force has run out of fatigue allowance, recorded by reducing the dice and removing them through the game, that force, usually a brigade, is forced to retire. Likewise we have an army one that lets you know the same thing for the force as a whole.
Units also get fatigue but that can be rolled off in the game, force fatigue cannot and so having a fresh reserve can be pivotal to sealing the game, just like the real thing.

d88mm1940 Supporting Member of TMP06 Dec 2017 3:30 p.m. PST

Ahhh. So you use the cards instead of scribbling on paper?

marshalGreg07 Dec 2017 8:36 a.m. PST

Very Nice!
Per the AAR the OTH plays as a psuedo version of C&GII with dice?
Look forward to some scenario info and a play of it here in with the US C&G group!


Brownand07 Dec 2017 10:58 a.m. PST

The figures are as always very good looking.
I'm less convinced about the battle itself. Imho (please; it's just imho) the table is too full, cavalry and infantry very intermingled in the later battle, no room for the infantry to deploy in linesetc.
I dont know if it is the rules which cause that or the gameplay.

evilgong07 Dec 2017 9:09 p.m. PST

Is that a turn-counter on the dice tower?


carojon08 Dec 2017 10:00 a.m. PST

Thanks for your comments chaps.

As with most, if not all, figure games for this period save perhaps the smaller scales below 18mm, compromises on ground scale are inevitable with depth in this case being much the larger compromise of the two.

That said the terrain is scaled to a 1" to 50 paces (approx 38 yards) ground scale and the figure bases scaled to that so the impression of a snug fit into the two and a quarter mile frontage of the whole British line is what it is given the caveat outlined above.

That said the forces were able to deploy their lines and columns during the games played, within the areas defined by the various maps depicting the historical action, so we feel comfortable with the modelling and I would stand by the impression one is able to take of how the forces would have been arrayed on the day given that no one is around any more to give a more comprehensive description.

The dice-tower does indeed carry a turn counter, taken from the original Piquet Rule Set and added to the towers when I put them together. It certainly helps in recording progress during our games.


Valmy9208 Dec 2017 12:51 p.m. PST

A rules question about grade, elan, and fatigue. I've read the rules, but not played. After the fatigue score is calculated based on grade and elan, is either rating ever used for anything else? I've looked and haven't found anything.

carojon08 Dec 2017 1:51 p.m. PST

Hi Phil
No not really, once you have the Fatigue Score (FS) calculated, which is a measure of the two components of grade and elan together with the number of men in the unit and you have a skirmish rating established your units is good to go.

We are using most of the national rules and there are other refinements such as good and poor shots or impetuous troops, but FS calculation is the defining number together with skirmish grade.

The authors are quite clear that the FS ratings built around the elan and grade ratings are generic and simply a guide and would encourage, as we have done, to change the ratings if you feel it is appropriate.

We have done this with certain units based on actual battlefield performance during the scenarios we are modelling and/or the campaign as a whole.

Hope that helps

Valmy9209 Dec 2017 5:15 a.m. PST

Thanks JJ, that is useful. In some ways reminiscent of Principles of War. What did you guys do for a play sheet? Photocopy out of the back? Make you own? Download from somewhere?

carojon11 Dec 2017 8:49 a.m. PST

The playsheet has been a developing project in that we wanted it set up for 15/18mm so as well as changing the distances quoted to half we have been gradually adding all the references to the extra rules which we play as standard because the extra granularity is fab.

Once we have finished the play-tests and I know it is finished I will put it up for others to use should they wish.

adymac265017 Dec 2017 4:27 a.m. PST

Good stuff that JJ

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.