"Jerusalem As Israel’s Capital, Reaction From Neighbors Today" Topic

To respond to Dan's post of 7 DEC at 1256 PST, a variety of groups around the world have attacks in various stages of development. These include Iran and Hezbollah, various Sunni groups, and ethnic/tribal/regional groups with religious underpinnings. They have a global presence and could use the announced US embassy move to justify an attack already planned. These may not take place this weekend or even this month. They take time to arrange and execute. Of course, these same groups usually have access to a bomb of some sort and can set one off in a crowded location with little notice. Christmas time provides lots of opportunities for this sort of an attack.

In the near term, there could be riots that get out of hand. It could be anywhere, from Amman and Cairo to cities in Asia or Europe. While the real causes for these could be anything, the instigators or their apologists will claim it was the result of the US Embassy move. It appears that the wheels are in motion to start these sorts of demonstrations but they may not take place right away.

There could also be a lone wolf attack of some sort. The Palestinian truck driver who just says it and drives his truck into a crowd in Tel Aviv for example.

The Philippine announcement about its potential move is interesting. Many Filipinos work in Arab countries and send their paychecks home. Their employment could be at risk. Duterte is most likely saying one thing to play up to the US but will then not do anything to actually move the embassy for some time.

Every journey starts with a first step.

Golly gee! Why should the President execute (I wonder why they call it the executive branch) a law passed by the legislative branch! We should impeach him!

This is going to cause Islamists to not like us!

Temptest in a tea pot!

I like chunky peanut butter. So does my family. We like it so much we wrote a note and stuck it in the cooler saying "only chunky peanut butter for us".

When I went to stay with my friend Simon it turned out he had a roommate called Mohammed. They've been together for a bit but don't get on. Something to do with a British administrator who allocated their shared housing. They've got a pot of chunky peanut butter they fight over all the time. It's ridiculous. I don't know why they won't just share but they both claim they bought it. I think it was probably there when they moved in.

There's a pot of smooth peanut butter that is definitely Simon's. It's got his name written on it. To be honest the last few time I visited I had it for breakfast and it did the job. I wasnt hungry, Simon was pleased to be good host and Mohammed wasnt to worried. Plus the chunky peanut butter has been hanging about for ages while they fight over it. I'm pretty sure it would give me food poisoning.

But the note on the cooler has been worrying me. Most of my family don't really care that much but I know I'll get some high fives if I eat the chunky peanut butter next visit. And it's been stuck on the cooler for ages.

I asked all my friends and they told me not to be a pain in the butt and the just eat the smooth butter like normal and let the guys get on with it. I checked with Mohammeds friends and they said they'd rather I didn't cause a load of trouble they'd have to deal with because of a note at home. Everybody was pretty adamant. Especially since I've been eating the smooth one every six months for years now without upsetting anyone

So, what should I eat?

One of the advantages of my chosen career I've had an opportunity to travel with world. Having worked in both the Occupied Territories on the West Bank and in the Republic of South Africa during the period of Apartheid. The big difference between the two populations is that in Israel I felt that I was living under a military occupation.

I suspect, rather like South Africa, the Israeli answer to a the "Two State Solution" would be to form a Palestinian "Bantustan."

link

StoneMtn, Wouldn't it be nice if the Palestinians had been included in that first step? Their participation in further peace talks would be pointless, now. What do they have to gain?

Apache, the average Palestinian is just someone who wants to live a decent quality of life in their own country, knowing that their village won't be leveled, or their olive orchards bulldozed in order to make way for an illegal Israeli settlement.

They're not "Islamists." Unless of course, illegal occupation of the West Bank, and the illegal theft of East Jerusalem should radicalize them because they have no hope. I wonder what you would do if your country was occupied by a foreign power?

+1 to 138SquadronRAF for trying to inject some refreshing facts into the discussion. Hopefully, they won't go unread.

It is true, US law should prevail over everything. The numerous UN resolution about the status of Jerusalem (252,267,271,298,465,476, etc.) must be ignored because what we are the US. If in 1995 US government decided to just ignore international law this is the right was to go.

Next time we will see a US politician/diplomat referring to a UN resolution, the rest of the world will have a good laugh. (especially true in the Trump vs North Korea context)

Patton, will the president be enforcing the sanctions against Russia that were passed by Congress a few months ago? Word is that he's ignoring them.

Y'all do know that this was actually one of Hillary's campaign promises, right?

The declared center of government for Israel has been Jerusalem since 1980.

*Russia* moved their embassy to Jerusalem back in April of this year.

But, but, but. . . Hilary!

*Russia* moved their embassy to Jerusalem back in April of this year.

This does not appear to be true.

Google shows the address for the Russian embassy in Israel as:

HaYarkon St 120, Tel Aviv-Yafo, 63573, Israel

According to TASS:

MOSCOW, December 7. /TASS/. Israeli Ambassador to Russia, Gary Koren, has welcomed Moscow's stance on a possible relocation of the Russian embassy in Israel to West Jerusalem from Tel Aviv in case all the problems related to the status of the Palestinian territories are settled.

More:
tass.com/world/979742

A "possible relocation." Note the qualifier: "in case all the problems related to the status of the Palestinian territories are settled." We can expect this problem to be solved very soon, right?

Its a stupid move. Its just throwing gasoline on the fire. And the Israelis aren't even asking for it.

Every journey starts with a first step.

And that includes the dumb ones, too!

Wulfgar stated: "the average Palestinian is just someone who wants to live a decent quality of life in their own country, knowing that their village won't be leveled, or their olive orchards bulldozed in order to make way for an illegal Israeli settlement."

- I agree that the average Palestinian just wants peace. Unfortunately, their leaders don't want peace and keep directing and encouraging terrorist attacks. Lots of other non-Palestinian "leaders" also finance and support these attacks. Most despicably they teach the children of Palestinians to hate Jew (and also the US), which is bound to be far more detrimental to the peace process then any statement of fact by a US politician.

" illegal occupation of the West Bank, and the illegal theft of East Jerusalem should radicalize them because they have no hope. I wonder what you would do if your country was occupied by a foreign power?"

- I assume you know how and why Israel occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem?
Originally all of Jerusalem was to be a UN controlled international city. But after being attacked twice by Arabs, Israel had seized all of Jerusalem.
- Terrorist attacks against Jews, by "Palestinians" in that region pre-date the formation of the state of Israel by many years. There was a massacre of Jews in 1920 near Jerusalem.

Apache,

"The only good Indian I ever saw was dead," – Phillip Sheridan.

How did that work again? Similar attitudes lead to similar results.

I would guess Phil Sheridan would say the results turned out pretty good.

USAFpilot wrote, "I would guess Phil Sheridan would say the results turned out pretty good."

Is that your wish, USAFpilot? Dead Palestinians? Ethnic cleansing? Is that what this is really all about?

Nope. You're the one who posted the Sheridan quote.

And you're the one who wrote:

"I would guess Phil Sheridan would say the results turned out pretty good."

Words have meanings, USAFpilot, and your meaning was unmistakable. Take responsibility.

Wulfgar:

Seems like you can neither discuss the issue civilly or argue the issue on facts.

I certainly never said anything related to your quote.

I've never heard an Israeli advocate for wiping out all Palestinians. I'm sure you know that the converse can not be said about the Palestinians or their Arab masters. You are being disingenuous at best.

Apache, I'm sorry that my posts offend you. From my own POV, I'm merely pointing out that by blaming the Palestinians for Trump's decision, you assert that the Palestinians are somehow to blame for all of the violence in the Middle East. This is, quite factually, similar to the attitude of 19th century Americans toward the Native Americans.

Let's consider that in the last few days since the president's announcement, Hamas did, in fact, launch rockets into Israel. Since then, Israel has launched repeated air strikes against Gaza. Two actual members of Hamas are confirmed dead, but fifteen civilians, who had nothing to do with the attacks, were injured, including a six month old baby.

Our president's announcement does nothing for the Palestinians, and simply affirms that he has no peace plan, despite his campaign promises. It affirms that he simply doesn't care.

So, what is he doing? He's firming up his Evangelical base, who are more deeply concerned about fulfilling Biblical prophecy than a fair and just peace. What's our president's plan for the Palestinians? Does he have one? His only plan at this point seems to be to please his constituents and the Palestinians will pay the cost.

Also consider that this comes at a time shortly after a travel ban has been confirmed, and following a series of tweets which can only communicate a hatred of Islam. What should the Palestinians be thinking at this point?

I think you're choosing to be offended because its easier to do than to consider a bigger picture.

Its not uncivil to make a counter argument to you. As far as I can tell, I'm merely pointing out facts that you don't want to hear.

I stand by my comparison.

Wulfgar: Its not that it offends me. Its just illogical and you are trying to put words into others mouths.

I understand the bigger picture and the cultural context that it exists in.

Who blamed the Palestinians for Trump's decision?

Who said the Palestinians are somehow to blame for all of the violence in the Middle East?

The Capital of Israel is Jerusalem. The US acknowledgment of this is law.

The problem is, there are multiple instances of Palestinian mothers cheering when their eldest son became a suicide bomber, and were grooming their younger sons to follow in their brother's footsteps.

I don't know how to break that cycle of violence.

Apache: So, basically, whatever Israel wants, Israel gets. Anyone who points out that it's both unjust and destined to failure is uncivil and putting words in everyone's mouth. If you want an answer to your questions, read the comments above.

When you don't like the message, just shoot the messenger.

Lion, I'm pretty sure that this plan isn't going to help break the cycle of violence. But no worries. We can ALWAYS blame the Palestinians. What else are they for?

What we have is a tragic convergence of Zionism which doesn't shy away from ethnic cleansing, and a cynical pandering to American evangelicals' hope for a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Sprinkle generously with fear of Islam, and you have a mess created with little or no thought for the future of peace in the Middle East.

That is not a peace plan. Its a recipe for violence both abroad and here at home.

Ha! Seriously?

How many years have both sides been "trying" for peace now?

How many decades listening to each side bicker and bring back issues the whole world thought had been discussed to death?

That boat ain't coming. The rest of the world needs to move along and make their own plans as though it's not gonna happen, instead of tip toeing as if the next sneeze halfway across the planet is gonna set off a bomb over there. Some people simply don't need an excuse to kill each other or to send their own children to get blown up in some crowded place. No treaty, deal or official announcement is going to change that deep level of hate.

Dan

Dan, is it really necessary to demonize the Palestinians in order to justify a decision based on American politics? If the Palestinians are feeling a helpless rage right now, they may have some justification.

Keep in mind that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas lobbing rockets into Israel, just as every American is not a member of the Klan or a follower of Richard Spencer or Andrew Anglin. Sadly, Islamophobia and Nationalism are on the rise, and so the worst aspects of political Zionism are being justified here in order to ignore the root causes of the problem.

This is why I'm comparing Sheridan's attitude to ours. Its much easier to simplify the problem down to good guys and bad guys. Then anything we do is justified.

Its not as if American policy in the Middle East has been successful. . . ever. On that you and I can agree whole-heartedly. Our motives there have rarely been crystal clear. Much of what is happening there is our own fault.

This decision, and attitude, are going to come back on us, and we're going to act soooooo surprised, though we shouldn't.

Did I single out the Palestinians in that post?

I spoke of both sides making the "peace" process last for several decades. And I spoke of mutual hatred and distrust standing in the way of any solid results.

That said, I haven't seen any videos of Israeli parents teaching their toddler how to slit the throat of Arabs, but I have seen the opposite, and school plays on how to stab Jews, and seen the massive support for them online for as long as the video remains. If the majority of Palestinians found those videos and plays obscene and as obstacles to peace, the pressure to end them would be evident.

That alone tells me that, for at least one more generation, things between the Israeli and Palestinians will go on exactly the way they are now.

The rest of the world can't be put on hold waiting for a miracle over there.

Dan
PS. There are only two things to do with a Law once passed … enforce it or repeal it. Legal and diplomatic limbos only add to confusion, mistrust and dangerous misinterpretations. If we act like we mean what we say then, for better or worse, our words and intentions will at least be taken seriously.

Dan, I think its sad that some people here are interpreting contradictory arguments as personal attacks.

The nature of the decision is anti-Palestinian, and assumes that they aren't worth including. YOU didn't make the policy. I'm not attacking YOU. I'm pointing out that the policy incorporates Zionism, Islamophobia, and is not being well-received around the world by our allies.

In order for us to accept the decision, we have to demonize the Palestinians. Otherwise, the complete destruction of any hopes for a peace plan isn't justifiable. I'm not willing to demonize the six month old boy nearly killed the other day by an Israeli air strike. Nor am I willing to demonize an entire religion.

As regards the law, once again, when will President Trump be enforcing the sanctions against Russia passed a few months ago by the Congress of the United States? Until he enforces the laws he doesn't like, the argument that Trump is enforcing the law doesn't carry much water.

This just went up on the internet about three hours ago:

link

""These people do not belong to the state of Israel. They have no connection to this country," Lieberman told Israel's Army Radio. "Moreover, I would call on all citizens of Israel — stop going to their stores, stop buying, stop getting services, simply a boycott on Wadi Ara. They need to feel that they are not welcome here." – Avigdor Lieberman, Israeli Defense Minister.

And so, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem begins.

Some people have stated that Trump's decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem was required by law and that Trump was just doing what the law required. This is correct up to a point. The "JERUSALEM EMBASSY ACT OF 1995" (Link to text of law: link ) provides for the following:

SEC. 7. PRESIDENTIAL WAIVER.

(a) <<NOTE: Reports.>> Waiver Authority.--(1) Beginning on October
1, 1998, the President may suspend the limitation set forth in section
3(b) for a period of six months if he determines and reports to Congress
in advance that such suspension is necessary to protect the national
security interests of the United States.

(2) The President may suspend such limitation for an additional six
month period at the end of any period during which the suspension is in
effect under this subsection if the President determines and reports to
Congress in advance of the additional suspension that the additional
suspension is necessary to protect the national security interests of
the United States.
(3) A report under paragraph (1) or (2) shall include--
(A) a statement of the interests affected by the limitation
that the President seeks to suspend; and
(B) a discussion of the manner in which the limitation
affects the interests.

(b) Applicability of Waiver to Availability of Funds.--If the
President exercises the authority set forth in subsection (a) in a
fiscal year, the limitation set forth in section 3(b) shall apply to
funds appropriated in the following fiscal year for the purpose set
forth in such section 3(b) except to the extent that the limitation is
suspended in such following fiscal year by reason of the exercise of the
authority in subsection (a).

US presidents have used this waiver since the law's passage to not move the embassy to Jerusalem as "necessary to protect the national security interests of
the United States." Any suggestion, therefore, that Trump is finally enforcing the 1995 law is ill informed.

Wulfgar:

Your comments are anti-Semitic and counter factual.

You refuse to address actual issues, but parrot 'talking points' and accuse others of making statements that they have not.

What you have refused to address is the fact that the defacto Palestinian government is literally teaching as part of their elementary education that to kill an Israeli is a sure way to paradise. Do you think that could have an effect on the peace process?

The action taken by the President is legal and in line with the will of the people of the U.S. You can disagree with him. You should not accuse others of supporting ethnic cleansing because they agree.

Those text books talk about martyrs. It's a loaded word as we tend to think of it as meaning suicide bombers, but in the Arab world martyrs generally means all those killed in a conflict.

Wulfgar's last post at least simply seems to be the story that's in the press with quotes.

"but in the Arab world martyrs generally means all those killed in a conflict."
- No it does not.

Yes it does.

@Begemot: thank you.

But I repeat that this was also one of Hillary's campaign promises, and that quite frankly Hillary was more of a hawk (more interventionist) than the current POTUS (who simply talks much bullcrap)

Lion – I agree.

Wulfgar : "Hamas did, in fact, launch rockets into Israel. Since then, Israel has launched repeated air strikes against Gaza."

Like I said, not much excuse is needed. Anything anyone says (or doesn't say) around the world will set them off.

Hamas knows full well that Israel didn't ask for the US to move its staff. And if they are unaware of that fact then their violence is nothing but blind hate with no intention of peace. They made that message loud and clear when they launched those rockets.

Dan
PS. Again about laws … enforce them or repeal them. Congress had 32 years to decide that. But now they want immediate implementation of the ones they pass now, including the ones that may go counter to ongoing investigations? I'm sure they all patted themselves on the back when they voted for and passed that law in 1995. It's time ALL of them treated their office like we are expected to be on our jobs. Enforce the laws or repeal the damn things!

14 of the 15 members of the security council voted to reject US unilateral declaration about Jerusalem. What a success for the US diplomacy…

The U.N.? Lol. I thought this was a matter between the US and Israel.

Dan

What is the UN doing telling any nation where it can put it's national capital?

How would you like the UN to tell the US that the national capital was in New York City, and not DC? Or tell Russia that the national capital was not in Moscow, but was in St. Petersburg?

I'm pretty sure that the reaction would be a raised middle finger to the UN.

14 of the 15 members of the security council voted to reject US unilateral declaration…

If I see that statement in reference to any issue, I think that the US must finally be doing something right.

I think it means we're doing something idiotic in the face of international consensus and the advice of our allies.

Lion: "What is the UN doing telling any nation where it can put it's national capital?"

Apparently they now think they can tell one country where to base their embassy staff for another country. I don't know when or how they were given that authority, but they just wasted funds debating and voting on it.

So what else does the U.N. think it can do? What else will they come up with next?

Dan
PS. That's like a homeowners' association telling me on which of my dining room chairs my guests must sit on when visiting my house.

It's more like them telling you not to sit on a family heirloom that's been the subject of a bitter dispute for generations when you go visiting your neighbors, when there's a perfectly good chair everyone else uses.

Ha! That's a new one.

Dan

U.N. is telling US and Israel to respect the multiple UN resolution about the status of Jerusalem (All voted by the US since 1948). UN resolution are not something that you can cherry pick only when you want to bomb another country…

Not sure that the next time,the US will complain to the UN about the behavior of Chinese in South China see, it will have the same impact.
USA is losing its credibility on the international scene, and China is patiently waiting.

The UN has no credibility; it never has. Most Americans think the UN is a joke.

Did you know that just about ever nation in the world has signed the UN land mine band treaty except for the US. Proving once again the UN is wrong and the US is right.

The irony is that the UN would not even exist without US financial support.

I get that you're up on the clouds and unlikely to step on them, but what wrong with trying to limit the use of landmines. That ready is unsigned by Russia and China and about 30 others so it doesn't really price just us right. And the Communist s have a lot more boys to use treading on them than we do.

The irony is that the UN would not even exist without US financial support.

The UN was an American idea, as I recall.